Designing the Future of Mental Health: Tracy DeLuca on Psychedelics, Creativity, and Innovation

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey everyone and welcome back to the podcast. Today we're diving into an exciting and transformative conversation about design and psychedelics, mental health and the future of healthcare. I'm Gerry Scullion and in this video I'll be sharing insights on how design can be a powerful force in mental health, education and healthcare, especially as we explore the intersection with psychedelics.

[00:00:22] Gerry Scullion: Now let's start talking about design itself. Design isn't just about making things look good. It's about reimagining and re imagining. Shaping the way we experience the world. Now, my journey began way back in the early 2000s in industrial design, but I quickly saw that design could be much more transformative tool in life.

[00:00:41] Gerry Scullion: Design isn't just for designers, it's for everyone. And each of us have the capacity to design solutions that improve the systems that we're part of. And let's start talking about today's wonderful guest, Tracy DeLuca. In this conversation, we speak about psychedelics and design, and psychedelics have captured the attention recently, not just [00:01:00] for recreational use, but for their potential to unlock creativity, unlock or improve mental well being, and microdosing.

[00:01:07] Gerry Scullion: This term, for instance, has shown promising effects on mental clarity and creativity, and this is especially relevant for those in the creative fields who are constantly pushing the boundaries and exploring new ideas. It's a topic that has come up many times over the years in the pre conversations for podcasts.

[00:01:24] Gerry Scullion: I truly probably didn't feel confident enough to tackle the ground. But in this conversation, we're going to explore the topic fully. I think it's going to be fascinating because we're going to explore how the space is evolving and how it's challenging the regulatory systems, mainly in the U. S. Let's jump straight

[00:01:40] Gerry Scullion: in.

[00:01:50] Gerry Scullion: Tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do.

[00:01:53] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, so I am from Ohio, from Cleveland, Ohio, um, but just spent about 26 [00:02:00] years in San Francisco. So, yeah, 26 and just moved to Austin, Texas a couple months ago. So I am now looking to explore what the design team looks like here in Texas.

[00:02:17] Tracy DeLuca: Never thought I'd live in Texas, but it's kind of exciting.

[00:02:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, and absolutely, like, I do know a few people in that neighborhood, so I'll be sure to connect you afterwards. But what was it like living in San Francisco for 26 years?

[00:02:31] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, pretty amazing. I feel like, um, well, I guess I would say that I feel like design kind of transformed my life because I worked in advertising for about 10 years and found that kind of soul sucking in some ways.

[00:02:43] Tracy DeLuca: And then also just with bursts of the ability to be creative in some ways. And, uh, yeah, and then I, I would say I kind of fell into working at IDEO and, uh, that just changed everything for me because it gave me a skill [00:03:00] set that allowed me to tackle any challenge that came before me. Uh, and I really do believe that.

[00:03:06] Tracy DeLuca: Like, I think design is, I'd say, as close to a human superpower as we have.

[00:03:11] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, yeah, a hundred percent. It is, I think it's, you know, we elevate human superpowers. That's one of the things that we, uh, as designers probably think we possess, but we just need to explain to the world exactly how we get there.

[00:03:25] Gerry Scullion: Um, you mentioned, well,

[00:03:27] Tracy DeLuca: yeah, because it's not even just us who has it as designers, but every single human being on this planet, every living, being on this planet, actually it's, it's designer in its own right.

[00:03:36] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. And I think that's one of the reasons why Neil connected us. 'cause when we were, I was speaking to Neil the last time.

[00:03:43] Gerry Scullion: We were, we're talking even more around one, his own personal journey, but we, we always tap into the natural ecosystems and habitats and, um, you know, the more you go into them, especially if you've read his book, folks, I totally recommend it. Explore a lot of the same kind of systems [00:04:00] and the rules that we have as humans, as everyone else in this panel that we share with.

[00:04:05] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah.

[00:04:06] Gerry Scullion: Have you, how did you find Neil's book?

[00:04:10] Tracy DeLuca: Um, let's see. I started actually last year I started to do a course on regenerative economics and started to learn about different financial models and how to think about economics in a way that more reflects natural systems. Um, and I'm. Came to that because working in health care, uh, you keep butting up against the same financial models and wondering why you're getting the same poor outcomes.

[00:04:37] Tracy DeLuca: And it's like, oh, well, it's the starting conditions of the financial model. So if that's the case, we need to think more creatively about financial models. So I started to take this course and I met, um, an economist named Bennett Zellner out of University of Maryland. And I think he's the guy who first started Uh, talked about Neil and shared his book.

[00:04:57] Tracy DeLuca: And then as soon as I started listening to it, I was [00:05:00] just like more of this. This is the key to unlock all of the, you know. The blocks that I was having as a designer, as it was working on more and more complex projects.

[00:05:12] Gerry Scullion: Hundred percent. Yeah. Um, so as regards the work that you've, you've done, like, you know, when we were speaking there before you said about ideo, I know you've got your own practice and primarily work in the healthcare space.

[00:05:26] Gerry Scullion: One of the pieces that Neil had mentioned to me was about, you know, this whole microdosing and macro dosing as you know, we're talking about mm-hmm . And you've actually had a, a course. in Stanford d. school on that topic. So let's talk a little bit more around the origins of this course. Um, I'd love to learn a little bit more, um, on how you, how you arrived on the topic.

[00:05:53] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, well, I have a, um, colleague of mine, Elisa Fennenbach, who has been working at the d. school for many years, and she [00:06:00] actually went to Stanford, uh, for her undergrad and grad school. So she's the one who originally started planting the seed and testing the waters and seeing if the d. school would even be open to this idea.

[00:06:13] Tracy DeLuca: For me, I had had my own personal healing experiences with Psychedelics in the therapeutic context and, uh, came to learn just the power of the medicines. And so, um, because I had the healthcare background and, you know, she had the design education background, it seemed like a perfect fit. And then the d.

[00:06:34] Tracy DeLuca: school was kind enough to give us a pop up class to see if we sank or swim. And, uh, no surprise, it turned out to be an incredibly popular. Pop up evening. Um, we had an amazing panel of guests. We had some hands on design experiences for people to go through and the D school was, you know, pretty pleased with the outcome.

[00:06:59] Tracy DeLuca: And then they [00:07:00] offered us the course. So 2 years ago, we taught the 1st class. And really, I mean, it was obviously a prototype. Um, we weren't sure who was going to even sign up and we're surprised to find, you know, it was a mix of people, many of whom had never even had their own personal experiences with psychedelics, but we're just curious.

[00:07:21] Tracy DeLuca: And so, and many of them weren't even designers. So many of them, it was the first class that they were taking at the D school as well. So yeah, just introducing people to the concept that this, yeah. Entire ecosystem needs to be created in order to provide people with access to care. And even people in the space aren't thinking about it that way.

[00:07:45] Tracy DeLuca: Right. Yeah,

[00:07:47] Gerry Scullion: as a disclaimer, I've never done any psychedelic, uh, stuff. Okay. So I am, uh, really interested to see how this, there's a correlation between this and creativity. And, [00:08:00] um, I know that's a lot of the stuff that we're, we're going to be chatting about here in this episode specifically. So let's, let's get down to the, I guess, the mechanics of it.

[00:08:10] Gerry Scullion: So are we, are we talking about LSD? Is that's like. My naivety coming into this, we're taking small doses of, of that drug.

[00:08:19] Tracy DeLuca: Um, there's many different medicines that you can take in microdosing form. Um, and I will caveat by saying I am not, um.

[00:08:28] Gerry Scullion: Promoting.

[00:08:29] Tracy DeLuca: Well, I'm definitely not promoting illicit use of any type of drug, but also, um.

[00:08:36] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah. I'm a designer, that's my expertise. I'm not a clinician and I'm not like a, um. Yes, so I can't really talk in specifics about like, oh, you would take this much of this on these days or do anything like that.

[00:08:49] Gerry Scullion: So, yeah,

[00:08:50] Tracy DeLuca: now that that's out of the way.

[00:08:52] Gerry Scullion: Certainly post us as a disclaimer there, if anyone there is going to go, well, Jerry said, and Tracy said, we didn't, [00:09:00] so, you know, we're going to have an open conversation about it anyway.

[00:09:03] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, no, but you can, I mean, psilocybin, which is mushroom, you can, many people microdose that, LSD, definitely, um, yeah, and even ketamine, there's a company called Joyous that, um, prescribes low dose of ketamine, and for microdosing purposes, and ketamine is legal in the U. S., um, it's prescribed off label, it was originally, you know, it's an anesthetic, and so because of that, people can get access legally.

[00:09:32] Gerry Scullion: Okay, so how many states in America legalize ketamine?

[00:09:38] Tracy DeLuca: That's on a federal level, so all states. Oh, great. Yeah, which is great. And then, um, you know, the FDA here in the U. S. in August just rejected, um, an application for MDMA, um, through MAPS slash Lycos. Um, they were looking at it as a, you know, [00:10:00] PTSD.

[00:10:01] Okay,

[00:10:02] Tracy DeLuca: treatment and unfortunately, they just rejected it, which was something we were all waiting for the again would happen on a federal level to make it easier to provide people with access.

[00:10:12] Tracy DeLuca: But Oregon and Colorado right now have legalized certain. You know, certain medicines and if they're used in a therapeutic context within like strict guidelines then people can get access to care. But it's pretty limited and considering how many people deal with mental health challenges. Yeah, it's just really hard for people to get access.

[00:10:34] Gerry Scullion: So what's the, um, what's the angle I guess from, you know, when governments are prescribing this? Why would They prescribe ketamine, um, or allow at a federal level ketamine to be made accessible to the public. What's, what's the argument for that? Just for people who are listening in who are kind of like, what?

[00:10:57] Gerry Scullion: Like, I would love to have that devil's advocate conversation. [00:11:00]

[00:11:00] Tracy DeLuca: Well, I think, I mean, again, it's because it was, it's prescribed off label, which means that once it's approved by the FDA, um, for one thing, it can be used for other things. Um, so it's, I would say it's a little bit of a loophole as to why it's, you know, federally available, um, because of that, it, it, yeah, people, um, clinicians started creating ketamine clinics, you know, maybe 10 or 15 years ago.

[00:11:30] Tracy DeLuca: I think originally it was more like anesthesiologists who are like popping up these ketamine clinics to provide people with the mental health benefits. Um, and you know, now, now that's expanded, um, more like therapists and, you know, less on the anesthesiologist side. So yeah, you can go into kind of what looks, I mean, there's many different ways that the set and setting as we talk about in psychedelic space, um, how [00:12:00] that comes to be, but.

[00:12:01] Tracy DeLuca: You know, traditionally, you're going to walk into a space that looks like a therapist's office with the old couch and some comfy, comfy pillows and blankets and, you know, you can get an injection, you can have it, um, through IV form, you could do lozenges and, um. Yeah,

[00:12:19] Gerry Scullion: I'm just, yeah, I'm just imagining, um, my mom hearing this, this particular episode who's in her age, what I don't believe you have to understand the trajectory of where I, I'm Irish.

[00:12:31] Gerry Scullion: I grew up here, you know, church had its stronghold over the country. I wasn't until I think it was 93 where contraceptions were. legal in this country. Yeah, we've come a very long way, but we still marijuana and weed and

[00:12:47] Tracy DeLuca: yeah,

[00:12:48] Gerry Scullion: it's still illegal in this country. So, um, and for most parts in Europe as well, it's still illegal.

[00:12:53] Gerry Scullion: But I have been to Colorado when it was just made legal. And it was it was just [00:13:00] absolutely hilarious for me to experience and walk around and just kind of go in a state of just like. This is unbelievable, like, you know, people were eating gummy bears and people were like, you know, I was like, this is a complete nother, sort of, future from where I've come from, um, my background in Ireland.

[00:13:18] Gerry Scullion: Sure. Um, so it's like America's been over on this journey for the last, probably, 10, 10, 15 years. I don't know when Colorado legalized, they were the first state, I think, weren't they, in the U. S. to legalize? Oh

[00:13:28] Tracy DeLuca: boy. Yeah, I don't remember exactly. I know that California, like, tried. We're usually one of the first to try in California and then get smacked down.

[00:13:38] Tracy DeLuca: And then some other state is like, uh,

[00:13:41] Gerry Scullion: yeah,

[00:13:41] Tracy DeLuca: yeah, we can do it.

[00:13:44] Gerry Scullion: Let's talk about, um, the course. Okay. In particular, how did IDEO receive the proposal that you were going to talk about, uh, psychedelics and creativity? Oh, that

[00:13:54] Tracy DeLuca: was the d. school, not IDEO. Not affiliated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. [00:14:00] Um, Oh, no problem. Yeah.

[00:14:03] Tracy DeLuca: I mean, they're, you know, they're related in lots of ways, but this didn't have anything to do with IDEO. Um, yeah. So the D school, I think at first blush kind of, we're very hesitant. Um, I think I said something like we can't teach a class about drugs,

[00:14:23] Tracy DeLuca: which, you know, fair enough is an initial thought because of the things that you just said. I mean, even though, you know, the U. S. is different than Ireland, it still has a lot of puritanical. Um, kind of aspects to it, but we had an advocate within the D school who really was championing this and you know, when you understand that it's actually medicine and not just saying that in like a hippie dippy kind of way, but like in a true, there's now been extensive research done on all sorts of different molecules, proving its efficacy for a [00:15:00] lot of mental health conditions and knowing that we haven't had Yeah.

[00:15:03] Tracy DeLuca: Any kind of breakthrough therapies for decades in the mental health space, you know, what that person said was the fact that you're thinking of it that way is the very reason why we should be teaching this class.

[00:15:17] Yeah,

[00:15:18] Gerry Scullion: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it makes sense when you put it into that context. What are the alternatives?

[00:15:24] Gerry Scullion: What's, um. If you imagine somebody is entering that ecosystem and they've got mental health problems, there's obviously talk therapy, there's, there's other various types of therapy, CBT, and then they get to the point where medication is probably being discussed. Um, in America, how is that journey? What does that look like?

[00:15:46] Gerry Scullion: Somebody who enters into the system that they can get access to these ketamine or soon to be probably MDMA. What does that look like? What's that service experience look like?

[00:15:57] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, I will just say it's pretty poor. [00:16:00] Um, our, our mental health, um, offering in the US and globally really is, I always use the word abhorrent.

[00:16:09] Tracy DeLuca: And one of the things that I did in my career, so I had a very personal experience in my family, both with my brother and my mom. Who had, um, pretty terrible mental health conditions. Um, and so as a designer, I wanted to get closer to care. So I wanted to work in healthcare to understand what that was like.

[00:16:30] Tracy DeLuca: And I did a project where, for a large healthcare system, where they wanted to look at what was the inpatient psychiatric experience. What did somebody go through, and who was in crisis, right? So somebody who was either a threat to themselves or others. And looking at their offerings. Um, for the entire system.

[00:16:49] Tracy DeLuca: And I was shocked because I knew it was bad from my own family's personal experience, but going in there and seeing that from a system perspective, [00:17:00] there really wasn't. Any sort of coherent strategy, um, holding any of it together. So that's actually why I, um, turned to exploring, you know, things like psychedelic medicine to say, is this a better alternative?

[00:17:17] Tracy DeLuca: Um, and so, you know, if somebody is in the traditional healthcare system, likely they're facing challenges at every turn. Whether that's trying to get access to a therapist, um, trying to get access to a therapist, you know, that is covered by their insurance because in the U. S. you know, we have. Convoluted, um, way of paying for healthcare, um, somebody that understands them, somebody that has a modality that is resonant with them.

[00:17:48] Tracy DeLuca: So like you said, it could be CBT, it could be, you know, duck therapy, um, could be somatic therapy. Like there are all these different modalities, um, and they work for people in [00:18:00] different ways or they don't, you know, there's no guarantee. It could be even CBT when I first started in healthcare. That was really exciting when people are like, CBT is kind of the future, but really what it was is that CBT was easy to productize.

[00:18:14] Tracy DeLuca: It was easy to turn into software and, um, you know, offerings like that. Yeah. And so, you know, if somebody is interested in doing ketamine therapy, say, um, again, it's still a little wild westy and a little crap shooty, you know, it's mostly built on referrals and recommendations and kind of word of mouth, like who is doing this with integrity.

[00:18:42] Tracy DeLuca: And, you know, I think a lot of people don't even know the questions to ask, and they're in a complete state of desperation. Because they've tried the medications, right, like they've gone through all of the SSRIs or, um, you know, different antidepressants and those aren't working [00:19:00] for them. So by the time they're considering something like ketamine, they kind of aren't interested in, like, the critical thinking aspect of, you know, sussing it out.

[00:19:12] Tracy DeLuca: And so that's where I think as a designer, I'm really,

[00:19:16] Gerry Scullion: yeah, yeah, when you frame it that way, that doesn't mean any serious breakthroughs and so long. And now there's this opportunity to explore it further, like, you know, it's not anything we were talking a little bit before around where I'm from in Ireland.

[00:19:35] Gerry Scullion: Thousands and thousands of years, um, pagans, lots of other, um, historical facts happened in, in the area I grew up or in Christianity, St. Patrick, lighting the fire in the hill of Tyre and so forth, and Christianity was brought around if you believe that. But anyway, that's a side point. But at that point, there was lots of experimentation happening.

[00:19:58] Gerry Scullion: Um, yeah, [00:20:00] the communities pre christ 3000 years pre christ, of course, there was things happening on the land. There was mushrooms that were growing. It was definitely experimentation and the science of this. So it's still at this 5000 years later, there's still stigma around us talking about this. You know, as we're talking, I'm like, what do I have to flag with Apple about this episode in particular?

[00:20:26] Gerry Scullion: Do I have to flag anything where I talk about promotional use of drugs? Mm-hmm . Society is really kind of, uh, nervous about these things. Yeah. Um, and there's probably, you know, good reason, uh, in some, some parts of the world where, you know, misuse of drugs and so forth and, you know, they can lead to addiction and, you know, death and mm-hmm

[00:20:49] Gerry Scullion: Crime and all of those, you know, kinda interconnected, um, kind of cultures. What are the things that are holding people back from experimenting? In your, in your [00:21:00] mind.

[00:21:01] Tracy DeLuca: Oh, well, certainly that certainly the stigma and the legal structures. Um, as you were bringing that up, though, like three different books popped up into my mind, and I thought I might share them.

[00:21:13] Tracy DeLuca: Um, one is The Dawn of Everything. I don't know if you've heard of that, but when you're talking about, you know, 3, 000 years before Christ and like different narratives about civilizations that have come to be. Uh, David Graeber was one of the two authors. I can't remember the other gentleman's name, but they look at original source material.

[00:21:31] Tracy DeLuca: It's a really thick book. Um, I recommend listening to it kind of, you know, versus reading it. But, um, but it really like helped transform how I thought about, you know, we were talking a little bit earlier about, um, just, you know, whether ancient civilizations were civilized or not, quote unquote, as I don't know the term seems like a little outdated, but, um, Yeah, just like the complexity of, of societal [00:22:00] design that existed in these eras and how we don't really know about them as well because we, you know, we kind of discounted indigenous voices or, you know, like these ancient Muslim traditions.

[00:22:14] Tracy DeLuca: Um, the other was Brian rescues. Um, his book is called the immortality key and that one that has more to do specifically with psychedelics. But, you know, he's really looking at ancient texts to help understand, like, oh, and, you know, ancient Greece, they actually had these rituals, um, where they used. They think, uh, psychedelic, you know, some sort of psychedelics in their annual rituals, people would go to a certain location and maybe it would only happen once in their lifetime.

[00:22:47] Tracy DeLuca: And it was like this really special, important thing. Um, so, so that, and then shoot, what was the third one? Oh, when you were talking about, uh, just the stigma and, you know, [00:23:00] addiction and things like that, uh, a book that really helped me. Change my understanding of drug use, I guess I would say, is Johan Harre is chasing the scream.

[00:23:12] Tracy DeLuca: Oh, okay, I've heard of that one. Yeah, and so he, um, you know, he kind of lays out what was happening in, like, maybe the early 1900s, and then fast forward, and then when the U. S. was like, hey, drugs are bad, drugs are illegal with Nixon, and, you know, and then kind of imposed that on a global scale, and so it's kind of ironic that now, The U.

[00:23:32] Tracy DeLuca: S. is, you know, on a state by state level, making these decisions about the legality of drugs that on a global level, like, is not, not okay. Like, we created the rules, we pushed the rules on everybody else, and now we're like, oh, guess what? We're the U. S. and rules don't apply to us. That's never happened before.

[00:23:55] Gerry Scullion: Keep on the tracks, Tracey. Keep on the tracks. [00:24:00] So, talk to us. You mentioned there about when you were doing the course at T School. Well, what do you cover off in that course? And I'm not promoting the course. I don't know the course, but I'd love to explore about the attendees and what was the outcome that you were hoping for them to achieve by taking that course?

[00:24:16] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:24:17] Tracy DeLuca: well, it really was like a broad scan. Um, again, because we didn't know who was going to be coming, at least in the first class, um, we wanted to create a class that we would have wanted to take, right? We had so many questions as designers. We were really coming at this from the question of what role does design have to play?

[00:24:35] Tracy DeLuca: In creating the psychedelic ecosystem. Um, and so we kind of broke it down. We call it like 10 little journeys because there were 10 courses, you know, 10 classes, and we kind of loosely modeled it off of, you know, psychedelic journey where you have, like, an initiation or entry ritual and, you know, just as designers.

[00:24:55] Tracy DeLuca: We love to have, you know. Thoughtful elements like that, but really it was looking at it [00:25:00] from all sorts of different perspectives. So we're inviting in experts who were clinicians or historians or, um, economists. And, you know, we wanted to give the students a really broad scan of the landscape and say, no matter what your personal interest is in this, you have a role to play if you'd like.

[00:25:22] Tracy DeLuca: Um, in helping design what the future of this could, could be.

[00:25:25] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. So, those journeys that you're talking about,

[00:25:31] Tracy DeLuca: we

[00:25:31] Gerry Scullion: were speaking earlier on creativity. What are you seeing as evidence in terms of people who microdose or macrodose? And we'll talk about the differences between those. What, what can people expect to get out of macro or microdosing as regards access to increased creativity?

[00:25:50] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah.

[00:25:51] Gerry Scullion: What have you seen?

[00:25:53] Tracy DeLuca: I mean, I guess I, I can just say like from more of a personal perspective, like anecdotally, I've heard [00:26:00] really great things about microdosing where people feel like it's helped them both with, you know, depression and anxiety and kind of more of the mental health side of things.

[00:26:09] Tracy DeLuca: But also, yes, like, opens them up to consider more possibilities than they're seeing in the day to day. So microdosing does mean sub perceptive. So when you take it, you're not, you don't feel like you're tripping or you're a burning man or anything, you know, it, it doesn't feel like anything. It's just more that it is.

[00:26:33] Tracy DeLuca: In the background kind of working. It's magic. I guess I would say, um, for me personally, though, I, I haven't really experienced that from micro dosing. So, and I don't know, or, or even just like the lessening of depression, you know, like, maybe because it's sub perceptive. I'm not perceiving a difference. Who knows?

[00:26:58] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, but I will say, [00:27:00] yeah, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I was just gonna say, but with, with macro dosing, you certainly are aware that you are having an experience that is altered from typical consciousness. And, um, in, in my own experience. I have felt like just a powerful well of creativity, like just a force and recognizing the infinite potential that exists to create anything that you want in the world.

[00:27:38] Tracy DeLuca: Um. Which is, is there. Yeah, it's amazing.

[00:27:43] Gerry Scullion: How do you find with microdosing? And I haven't asked you the question if you are microdosing right now. But I, you're more than welcome to share if you are. But how that interconnects with other services. For instance, if you have a car crash, when you're [00:28:00] microdosing, does that impact your insurances?

[00:28:03] Gerry Scullion: Um, how does that impact your healthcare, um, subsidies that you have to pay for your private healthcare in America? If you were, you know, if you accidentally started a fire, can they, the insurance company, use that against you because you're, there's evidence there in your bloodstream that you're microdosing.

[00:28:21] Gerry Scullion: Is there any evidence around how other services? I have

[00:28:26] Tracy DeLuca: no idea, but I can make some guesses they're not gonna love that and they're gonna use that as well. So, um, yeah, I really don't know. And I guess I would say, I mean, I'm sure that there are laws on the books around that already from just like a illegal drug perspective.

[00:28:45] Tracy DeLuca: Um, but, but if you're trying to make the case that you're using it therapeutically, I mean, I guess I wouldn't think that that would hold water in the judicial system.

[00:28:55] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm sure it's already been encountered in the courts in America [00:29:00] as regards marijuana use. Yeah. You know, if there's an accident, they can say, well, it's, I've got a, I've got a car.

[00:29:07] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, impaired

[00:29:07] Tracy DeLuca: driving. Yeah,

[00:29:09] Gerry Scullion: absolutely. It's, it's, it's a medicine. Like, it's just the same. I'm sure that's probably the case, but if anyone out there is listening and wants to help us answer that question. Yeah, I'd be curious

[00:29:18] Tracy DeLuca: to know.

[00:29:19] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, it's just like, I'm trying to, not that I'm trying to break it apart.

[00:29:23] Gerry Scullion: I'm trying to understand how it's role within the broader societal ecosystem and the impacts that that has, like, you know, yeah. So, yeah. As regards, um, you know, how you find the, the industry, like, and their acceptance to taking this, because I know the course has run a couple of times, I think, since the prototype.

[00:29:44] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. What kind of people were attending the course, um, what were they saying at the very end of it? Were they rushing to their doctors to get, you know, prescriptions to go microdosing? I

[00:29:56] Tracy DeLuca: mean Well, I'll just say, like, the types of [00:30:00] people who are coming to the course was a broad mix, and we had everything, you know, from undergrads who maybe we're just starting to take their first design courses, um, we have a lot of business school students who come for the first Class and there's kind of a shopping period at Stanford.

[00:30:19] Tracy DeLuca: So like the first couple weeks you can like try on courses and I will say like we have a lot of business students in the first class and then usually by the second class we have like one or two because they recognize that Our class isn't how to make a windfall of cash in psychedelics, right? It's like a more nuanced conversation.

[00:30:37] Tracy DeLuca: Um, and they go, Oh, I can make more money starting an AI business or whatever. So I'll just go do that. I don't know what they think, but I,

[00:30:46] Gerry Scullion: um, but we also have, what's that? It doesn't tick the box maybe for some of them.

[00:30:51] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, people do. And yeah, they do think that like, there's so much money to be made in [00:31:00] psychedelics, it's like the great new frontier and so let's like land, land, grab that.

[00:31:04] Tracy DeLuca: And that is like a conversation that's even happening within the psychedelic space, you know, people who have been in the space for long periods of time. And it's very relational and, you know, it's not as transactional. Um, and then people who are like, okay, great. How do we patent medicines? How do we. Yeah.

[00:31:24] Tracy DeLuca: You know, stake our claim and 10x our returns and all that. So you can imagine that like any industry, there's going to be some friction there. Um, but we also have students who we have had law students. Um, a funny thing I like to tell an anecdote about that. So the first year we had a law student and, um, the, the law school was saying that they didn't want to give her credit for the class.

[00:31:50] Tracy DeLuca: Um, and, you know, we, so we made a case and we're like, here, you know, here's all the things they're like, we don't see how this has anything to do with law. [00:32:00] And it's like, really, because it's new industry that is like, currently very much about, like, the legal system and policymaking and, you know, all of this.

[00:32:09] Tracy DeLuca: And so when we turned over, you know, our syllabus and kind of made the case, then they were like. Oh, well, we don't see what this has anything to do with design. And I'm like, I don't know that the law school should be deciding what design is or isn't, but interesting. So she. Yeah.

[00:32:29] Gerry Scullion: Isn't it like, that's what you're kind of hoping for that to start these conversations to get them more widely acceptable.

[00:32:36] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah. So she ended up taking the class anyway and just taking another class to get credits and you know. Whatever

[00:32:43] Gerry Scullion: it is kind of like at that point, and I'd love to know. Um, I know Jessica Hish, who is on the podcast there a couple of months, or Hish, um, I think is how Jessica pronounces it, um, just wrote an, uh, a blog article, and I got the blog, I've got a feed [00:33:00] set up on my, on my email about being open about microdosing.

[00:33:03] Gerry Scullion: And, um, you know, it was something that I was relatively aware of, but I wasn't, I wasn't sure about, you know, what does that look like? And I guess for people out there, And myself is probably somewhat, you know, I'm included in that there's probably an error of kind of like, well, how could it go wrong if it is it regulated in terms of what does that space look like now that I've learned from this?

[00:33:27] Gerry Scullion: It's definitely regulated it's passed through FDA approval.

[00:33:32] Tracy DeLuca: Well, no, only ketamine is legal. And like I mentioned, that's only legal because it's prescribed off label. So any kind of microdosing with any other kind of molecule is definitely not no, no, no. And it's not regulated. And so, you know, just like any other kind of.

[00:33:52] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, like, like that, it opens itself up then to a degree of risk, which is why we [00:34:00] want it to be accessible to people in a legal fashion.

[00:34:04] Gerry Scullion: Okay, that makes, that makes more sense. Yeah, yeah. There's a black market then operating in terms of people who want to microdose, even in San Francisco and anywhere else across.

[00:34:16] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, well I will say now that you bring that up, um, on a citywide level. Places like San Francisco or Oakland, I think Ann Arbor, Michigan, there's a handful of cities that have, um, what do they say, decriminalized or whatever it is, they've made it like the lowest priority for the, you know, police officers or whoever to enforce it.

[00:34:43] Tracy DeLuca: And so it doesn't make it legal, but it just makes it like, we're not going to bother to prosecute anybody. So, more gray area, more confusion.

[00:34:53] Gerry Scullion: It's not far away from those discussions of, should we legalize it because it's so low on our priority list. [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah.

[00:35:01] Gerry Scullion: Indication at that point that it's not that far off being regulated and, you know.

[00:35:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, criminalized, so to speak.

[00:35:08] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, and I mean, and so I had mentioned that the FDA had rejected the application from Lycos around MDMA, but there are more applications in the pipeline for the FDA to potentially approve around psilocybin, LSD, other Thank you very Other molecules. Um, yeah, so it's not a closed, you know, it's not like that door closed and it's all over.

[00:35:35] Tracy DeLuca: Um, it's just that it's more of a delay. And that means that more people suffer needlessly waiting for these medicines to get. In their hands.

[00:35:44] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. I'm, I'm looking on your LinkedIn here at the moment. Um, I'm trying to find when the next course is. Is that something you're currently exploring?

[00:35:54] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah, well, um, Stanford did approve us to teach a 3rd year.

[00:35:58] Tracy DeLuca: And so that will [00:36:00] happen in the spring of 2025. And so, you know, if folks who are listening are Stanford students, they can take that. Um, and then also my colleague who I mentioned co creating this with Elisa Fendenbach, um, has the school of psychedelic design, which is basically teaching similar content that we teach at the D school, um, to folks outside of Stanford.

[00:36:26] Tracy DeLuca: So I wanted to make it accessible to people more broadly. And I believe she has another course starting in the fall. Fall sometime. So if people are interested, they want to look that up. Um, the school of psychedelic design.

[00:36:39] Gerry Scullion: So as regards your own work, Tracy, your own practice, and you just moved Austin, Texas.

[00:36:45] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, talk to us about the kind of work that. You have done and are looking to do more of

[00:36:52] Tracy DeLuca: yeah, so for the past, I would say maybe like 5 to 7 years. I've worked with traditionally worked with large [00:37:00] health care systems coming up with new care models. Like I mentioned, like, what's the future of primary care?

[00:37:05] Tracy DeLuca: You know, what's the inpatient psychiatric experience look like? How do we help people who have diabetes kind of manage? Over time around behavior change and things like that. So, you know, now that I have this Work in the psychedelic medicine space and have been really thinking about the role of design for the past I'd say like three years or so that's another aspect of the consultancy that I'm that I'm offering and That would just be working with organizations that are interested in how do we provide people with access to this?

[00:37:41] Tracy DeLuca: Um, or organizations, you know, like nonprofits and things that are looking at it from an advocacy or policy perspective. Um, my work is really, I love coming up with, you know, initial strategies, taking a mess of ideas and kind of solidifying it into something that people can take [00:38:00] action on and then helping it get to the point where you can start actually building something.

[00:38:06] Tracy DeLuca: And then once it starts to become operationalized, that's usually when I. Move on to something else, so

[00:38:14] Gerry Scullion: going back to the psychedelic piece, um, I know this on, you know, your website and linkedin, you talk about being, there's, there's other places like the school of psychedelic design, is that something that, uh, runs other courses in the space as well.

[00:38:29] Tracy DeLuca: Um, so I actually was more helping to get it started. And then, like, yeah, so the course that I mentioned that's happening in the fall. Um, that is. So,

[00:38:45] Gerry Scullion: for people who want to learn more about psychedelics and design generally, who may not be able to get access to the course in d. school, what resources, I know you mentioned three books, but what resources are out there for people at the moment?[00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Gerry Scullion: And I don't know, you might already have something out there at the moment you can promote yourself, but for people to explore more in this space, because it sounds like. It's really interesting and it sounds like it's going to be, become, you know, a broader part of therapeutic and design. Yeah. Where are the places you go to find your information?

[00:39:24] Tracy DeLuca: Yeah. Well, I think if you're really just getting started and like curious about the space, Michael Pollan's book, how to change your mind is like the best resource. He goes through his own personal journey and really talks through like the different medicines and what their use cases could be and kind of what effects they have on their body on your body.

[00:39:47] Tracy DeLuca: And if you don't like to read, um, there's a Netflix special called how to change your mind, which is related to the book and similar, easy to access layman's language, you know? [00:40:00] Um, so I would start there if you were more in the space and just curious about like keeping up with, you know, the latest and greatest, I would say, um, there's a couple great newsletters that go out.

[00:40:13] Tracy DeLuca: One is called psychedelic alpha. I would say that's more like if you're, yeah, if you're in the industry and you're kind of interested in like the movers and shakers and kind of what's happening And then there's Tricycle Day, which is more of like a, uh, It's more of like a fun and approachable. It has kind of a cheeky tone to it.

[00:40:33] Tracy DeLuca: Um, but again, it like serves up some good content around what's happening on a regular basis. And, um, yeah, just kind of gives you,

[00:40:41] Gerry Scullion: follow you on LinkedIn as

[00:40:42] Tracy DeLuca: well. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and there's also, um, there's a woman, Alexandra Plesner, who, um, Psychedelics Design is her organization, and she's been doing a lot of work also to promote design in psychedelics.

[00:40:58] Tracy DeLuca: I think that, you know, for [00:41:00] folks like Elisa and I and Alexandra, it's like our mission to popularize the idea that design and psychedelics actually go together.

[00:41:09] Yeah,

[00:41:10] Tracy DeLuca: there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and we want it to be done with an intentional design process so that we make sure that we're getting the outcomes we want.

[00:41:18] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely, if people want to reach out to you, Tracy, what's the best way for people to do that? I can put a link to your LinkedIn, obviously, but if there's a website or business,

[00:41:30] Tracy DeLuca: I wish. I wish I had a website right now. It's like the cobbler shoes situation where I keep being like, I need to do that. I would say LinkedIn is probably the best at this moment.

[00:41:40] Tracy DeLuca: You can message me. You can follow me, do all the things there. And

[00:41:45] Gerry Scullion: yeah. Absolutely. Listen, look, Tracy, thank you so much for your time today. Sorry for jumping in. We were having a conversation. I was like, but come on, I think we're going to do a podcast because it's a podcast. We're like, really? I love it.

[00:41:57] Gerry Scullion: That's you know, sometimes the best [00:42:00] conversations come out of that. So that's right. Thanks for giving me your time, your, your energy and ultimately your vulnerability and being put on the spot and asking some questions that were totally unprepared. But, um, I really loved speaking with you today and I'm looking forward to hearing if there's anything that you want to promote.

[00:42:17] Gerry Scullion: To the people in the Human Centered Design Network where I'll be at that course or other courses that you do Please just come back to us and let us know and I know our listeners would definitely love to explore that more.

[00:42:26] Tracy DeLuca: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for the opportunity. I mean, yeah, I wasn't thinking we were gonna do this, but like fuck yeah, why not?

[00:42:37] Tracy DeLuca: You too

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