Turning Conflict into Opportunity: Emma Lynch

Gerry Scullion (00:01.464)

Come here, Emma. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast. You know, we've actually known each other for a long time, but we're going to come to that probably through the conversation before our listeners. Maybe we'll start off. Tell us a little bit about yourself, where you from and what you do.

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Emma Lynch (00:16.525)

Okay, okay, so I am from Drogheda and that is in County Louth in Ireland for anybody, I don't know where they're listening in from. My background, I started out in science, walked the road of academia for many years. So I got a primary degree in biochemistry and then went to the States and did a PhD in cell and molecular biology.

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Gerry Scullion (00:25.603)

Yep.

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Gerry Scullion (00:34.434)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (00:42.171)

and then came back to Ireland and did some research in St. James's Hospital. And I suppose at that point realized, okay, I want to understand how to bring something, bring research, I suppose, to a patient or how to have impact. And I suppose the next move for me then was to say, okay, I'll...

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Gerry Scullion (00:47.628)

Wow.

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Emma Lynch (01:05.799)

make my way into the pharmaceutical industry and to see how you can turn something innovative research based into a product and actually can draw it have an impact. So I spent 17 years in, I suppose within the pharmaceutical industry in a specialty called medical affairs. I started in a European based company, UCB, and then spent most of my time in Pfizer.

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Gerry Scullion (01:16.461)

Wow.

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Emma Lynch (01:32.455)

and then finished as country medical director in a Japanese company called Stellis. And I suppose the medical affairs function is all about the clinical data and how to partner with the healthcare community in order to, you know, unlock the value and demonstrate the value of clinical data for the healthcare setting and help the commercial teams drive strategy around the clinical data.

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Gerry Scullion (01:59.754)

Okay.

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Emma Lynch (02:00.133)

So yeah, so now I'm at my own. I'm trying to walk the entrepreneurial road, learning as I go, stumbling as I go, rising and falling. And I am trying to do something in the space of critical medicine shortages right now and medication errors. So that's, yeah, that's for my sins.

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Gerry Scullion (02:06.935)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (02:10.701)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (02:19.063)

Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And when we connected like so, as most people on the show will know, I'm obviously Irish, but I'm from a little town called Drogheda, which Emma mentioned there. And we did have someone from Drogheda on a number of months ago talking about mythical Ireland.

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So you're the second person from the town to come on the show. But I'm delighted to have you here. Let's talk a little bit more around your experience working in the pharma industry, because randomly when we connected, it was around conflict resolution. I wanted to try and understand more on how this this appeals to a lot of people within service design and transformation, people who are trying to enable organizations to become more.

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Emma Lynch (02:41.553)

Very good.

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Gerry Scullion (03:07.214)

human centered in their approach to problem solving, the designing of services, whether they be public or private sector. And too often when we bring those methods and mindsets back to the organization, we can be faced with conflict situations. And I'd love to get your perspective based on the 17 years you're working in the pharma industry. And you know, and I know that's

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No mean feat because it's a pretty heavily regulated space to be in with most likely probably a lot of difficult and people with different perspectives on such situations. So let's talk about your experience with conflict and how it's shaped you as a communicator.

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Emma Lynch (03:58.991)

Yeah, so I suppose as I grew in my career, in the early years, you know, you're set tasks and you do. And then I suppose you increase your level of responsibility, you know, across a portfolio, or then you begin to people manage. And I suppose that I was always wanted to be a people manager. In a lot of cases earlier in my career.

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I'd never met a people manager that I was like, I want to emulate how they operated. And so I wanted to move to that level of responsibility. I want to take on people management. I found it, I could see that the managers found it hard to get things done. And so I suppose with that level of resistance, I was like, right, if I go into people management, I want to.

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figure out how I want to do it. And I want to figure out how to affect change and to be able to drive projects at a bigger scale and to find a way to cut through, I suppose, all the noise and the resistance that people normally find when they find it hard to get things done. So I suppose with that challenge and people management, it took me down a road where I was meeting that resistance and saying, okay,

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Gerry Scullion (05:10.094)

Hmm.

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Emma Lynch (05:18.827)

I can keep butting my head against this resistance and blame the wall I was hitting against, or I could learn how to communicate more effectively. And at that point in my career, I took a communications course thinking I need to learn how to communicate more effectively so the wall of resistance can hear me better. But what I discovered was that actually I needed to learn to communicate with myself more effectively.

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to be able to navigate and slice through the resistance and identify the individuals that wanted to go on the same journey and to get the right stakeholders around me to be able to drive the projects forward. But I wasn't able to do that until I learned how to effectively communicate and deepen the relationship with myself.

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Gerry Scullion (06:01.357)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (06:09.838)

Hmm.

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Emma Lynch (06:10.255)

And once I began to do that, then I could identify, okay, how to get the right stakeholders in the right places at the right time to be able to bring not only the people that reported to me forward, but to get the right stakeholders across the organizational line to move a project forward. And I suppose in my career, it became, and still to this day, the most transformative thing that I've learned to do and continue to learn to do, because I suppose learning to communicate with yourself is the daily weekly.

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endeavor and I always kind of my target is to keep growing by one percent every week, every month and how I communicate and how I try to bring people together. And I suppose that compounds over time and you become gain a certain level of expertise in how to navigate conflict and how to be calm in the center of any storm.

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Gerry Scullion (07:02.752)

Yeah, absolutely. There's so much to unpack in that one. But I want to drill a bit more into the communication that you have with yourself and being able to understand and improve what that situation is. When we were speaking beforehand, I don't know how we got onto the topic of women empowerment. I spoke about a narrative that I had where.

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Emma Lynch (07:11.312)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (07:27.416)

Couple of years ago, I was interviewing designers and I interviewed a bunch of man designers and a bunch of woman designers. And it seemed that the conversations with the men were much more like gorillas banging their chest and talking about how great they were. And it seemed to be a harder task for women to do to really sell themselves.

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How connected are you to that story as regards the conversations and the communications you're having with yourself? Does that resonate?

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Emma Lynch (08:02.375)

100 % resonates and I still identify with that, I suppose, as a female. I think, and I see it across all, like many colleagues and, you know, many people that are reported to me, many peers across the board that I think, I don't know if it's a cultural thing. I think probably it is a cultural thing that, you know, you're raised as a young girl to help.

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and to see the needs, the unmet needs of everybody around you and to help solve those problems. So you're always, I suppose, trained to look outward. And so I think I've noticed the more as I grow my career and in the conversations across peers that we struggle to reflect back to kind of go, okay, well, what did I add and deliver to that project?

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And we never want to over egg or emphasize the portion and the part that we played. So we nearly downgrade ourselves and like, well, we only played this tiny piece of the pie to get a project across the line. Whereas, you know, you'd hear other people shout from the rafters that they got the project across the line. And I suppose with maturity, I've realized that that polarity of I'm superior and I got the project across the line.

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or I'm inferior and played only a tiny part, neither serve you in the long run. And, you know, it's about, if you want to get anything across the line, there's always a team effort and there's always multiple people playing a part. But I suppose as a woman, it's not to internalize, you know, the people that...

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you know, put themselves on this pedestal, not to internalize that going, okay, well, I can't be that I can't project myself like that. I don't want to project myself like that. However, I do want to be more balanced and recognize in the part that I did play and be able to acknowledge the parts that everybody else did too, in order for us to come together and assimilate to be able to get the project across the line. And so for me, the truth is in the middle of the polarity, neither are

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Gerry Scullion (09:58.158)

Sure.

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Gerry Scullion (10:14.52)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (10:21.349)

are going to serve people in the long run. You can never get anything across the line on your own. It's very rare. So it's always a team effort and it's been able to look back and really understand the skills that you brought to the table to be able to play your part in getting that project across the line.

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Gerry Scullion (10:26.52)

Hmm.

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Gerry Scullion (10:36.077)

Yeah.

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It's really true. In my experience, this is a personal experience, whenever I've encountered women with really strong communication skills, you're trying to get ahead within an organization. Too often I'd hear amongst my kind of male group that they're difficult or

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You there's certain drug which we were is used like you know but really there's a there's a harshness that has been conveyed to try and get ahead within this man's and whether it's right or wrong. It happens like like where the natural respect for the individual the human. live how they want to live isn't often met.

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So in terms of their communication styles, it's often leans towards the size of being brash as opposed to just being who they are. And organizations don't seem to respect or accept that. Do think that's an honest reflection on where most organizations sit, where it forces the woman almost to become speaking the language that is predominantly male to get ahead?

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Emma Lynch (11:33.511)

Thank you.

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Gerry Scullion (11:52.494)

So when we're talking about communication styles, is that is that a fair assumption or am I completely way off target?

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Emma Lynch (11:53.009)

Yes.

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Emma Lynch (11:57.283)

No, no, what you're saying totally is ringing a bell with me because like, suppose, I think that's why, you know, when I was looking for role models as females as to, know, who would I model myself on communication wise as I was trying to, you know, move through levels of responsibility within the organization, you know,

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a lot of women take on that, I will become that gorilla who beats my hands on my chest. And I am going to now emulate that male picture. And I don't think.

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Gerry Scullion (12:27.651)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (12:34.905)

I don't think either work. Even for a man who beats his chest, I don't think it works either because typically the man who beats their chest that hard doesn't bring people and teams with them. And then women think that that's because those men sometimes do get ahead to a certain point and women start emulating that thinking that's what's needed. And in my experience, actually, the truth is in the middle.

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Gerry Scullion (12:45.134)

100%. Yeah, absolutely.

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Emma Lynch (13:01.711)

Inferiority is not needed. This superiority banging your chest as a gorilla is not needed. There's a truth in the middle that actually if you learn to deepen your relationship with yourself, you don't need to swing to either polarity. You actually can be yourself and deepen your communication to be able to have a fairness and an assertiveness and an authority about yourself.

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Gerry Scullion (13:15.819)

Absolutely.

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Emma Lynch (13:27.823)

while also listening to the needs of the stakeholders around you and understanding how to prioritize those and how to engage with other people who are deepening their relationship with themselves. And now everybody is deepening. so the level of communication now is more mature than the lower. I suppose it's in my mind, it's about moving past your ego, communicating and you're deepening a relationship and moving beyond your ego to communicate.

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Gerry Scullion (13:31.021)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (13:43.126)

richer.

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Gerry Scullion (13:50.083)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (13:54.156)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (13:55.887)

And so, but I would agree. A lot of women think that that's what's required and they start leaning in towards that, that dominance. And yeah, and I don't think it gets either sex playing that behavior. I don't think it gets them either, either of them up. Short term it might, but in the long term it doesn't. No. No.

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Gerry Scullion (14:12.374)

Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't serve the organization. The maturity doesn't get any better and it just perpetuates this whole kind of male dominated kind of slant.

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Emma Lynch (14:25.563)

Yeah. And then those people get to a position of, you know, responsibility where they're hiring people and they hire in like -minded people and then they bring in more of that ego complex. Yeah. And it doesn't serve the organization in the long run. Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (14:39.896)

So with that conversation that you were talking about with yourself, can you remember? Because we were both weird, probably quite similarly. We both went to Catholic schools and we both went to schools at the same time in the same town. So we do know each other from childhood. But what was that like when, say, you went from Dublin to America to study where you would have seen a much more presumably liberal

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Emma Lynch (14:57.093)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (15:08.244)

perspective on life and how did that transform you? What did that give you as a human, Emma?

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Emma Lynch (15:14.811)

was the one thing that I instantly noticed about the American mindset was anything was possible. And you know that if you could dream it, you could make it happen. And so was very can do positive attitudes, and a very welcoming. So like if somebody had a family gathering at the weekend, and they just met you and you're really interesting.

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character or just back story. They're like, come meet my family, come join us for the weekend. We're all going to the lake to do acts. And so the American experience for me was a very open -minded, positive, can do, will do, connect everybody and celebrate everybody's successes. And so I really, yeah, it was a real eye -opener for me for, you know,

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what mindset, what a positive mindset really looked like.

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Gerry Scullion (16:13.046)

Yeah, the opportunity to travel as well, presumably in your 20s or early 20s, I'm sure that would have been really liberating, I'm sure, to have those conversations, to experience another perspective of kind of life. How did that change the communication that you had with yourself? Because I'm seeing a thread happening across your career here in terms of how you can improve.

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Emma Lynch (16:36.847)

Yeah, I think it definitely showed me that like, you know, if I had courage, I could move into new environments and learn so much. And it showed me a new mindset of like of total positivity. I suppose my relationship myself didn't really deepen until I came back, got some work experience within the Irish setting, you know.

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Gerry Scullion (16:46.264)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (17:05.179)

got knowledge under my belts, doing kind of basic tasks in kind of the first level of jobs. And then I was like, okay, now I have a anything is possible mindset after learning it from the States. Now I have enough knowledge within the sector to see what's happening, what's going on. And now the problem came where I was like, okay, I can see what needs to happen here, but my frustration that

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things were hard to get done and there was a resistance and how do you get people lined up and how do you move forward? Politics, conflict, how do you navigate it? And I was all the time looking for role models to see, who does it really well? And it was, get me wrong, there was some role models who did certain aspects really well and gave me great mentorship, but there were certain aspects that I was like, no.

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Gerry Scullion (17:38.062)

Okay.

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Gerry Scullion (17:42.551)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (17:59.973)

that communication just doesn't feel right to me. So I suppose it was at that point that I really started kind of going, okay, how do you, what do I need to learn about communication? And I took that course and I thought I needed to more effectively refine my language so others could hear me better. But what I discovered was it wasn't about them at all. It was a hundred percent about me and I needed to go deeper to be able to.

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understand the thought patterns that were serving me and the thought patterns that weren't and been able to identify others who were willing to deepen their relationship with themselves too and then you partner with those individuals to make things happen. And so you could bring, you know, projects, you know, further along with kind of everybody's energy aligned.

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Gerry Scullion (18:33.57)

Hmm.

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Gerry Scullion (18:44.258)

Okay.

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Gerry Scullion (18:54.838)

What were the things that you noticed when you reflected on your own communication styles? What were the bits that needed to change?

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Emma Lynch (19:02.887)

So there's, I suppose there's two concepts maybe, I'm trying to think how do I explain this? There's two concepts that I suppose were really influential that I learned that really highlighted to me what aspects of myself that I needed to own. One is called a relationship of three. And so it means, let's say you and I chatting today, you know, have relationship.

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we're talking, but there's three relationships at play at all time. So I have a relationship with myself, you have a relationship with yourself, and then there's the relationship between the two of us. So there's actually three relationships at play at any one time. And so like, I have my own internal dialogue, but then I have the dialogue that I'm using in the relationship to chat to you. And so once I started understanding, you know, how I could separate myself out from someone else, I was like, okay, if I listen to those two voices, what's going on?

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Gerry Scullion (19:38.616)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (19:58.881)

And, you know, there's a concept called the drama triangle where there's three different conversation types that, you know, can drive a lot of internal drama within yourself or drama between you and me or me and another person. And what I discovered about myself was in that drama triangle, I was playing one of the roles predominantly, which is the rescuer. And so I was.

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Gerry Scullion (20:22.688)

Okay.

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Emma Lynch (20:25.325)

blurring the lines of responsibility between me and other people in work and over helping. And because I was, I was taught as a girl, you you help, you help everybody. And so whenever there was an issue in work, I was like, first person there going, yeah, I'll help. No problem. I'll help. Yeah, I'll jump in. I'll help. And I thought I was doing a really good thing. Do being the helper.

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Gerry Scullion (20:33.518)

Okay.

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Emma Lynch (20:54.619)

And of course everybody liked me because I was always helping. know, obviously I was younger, plenty of time then, no family and stuff, so I could help. I could work extra hours and help. And so, yeah, I learned, I began to learn that actually that over -helping actually was more about me subconsciously wanting to be liked and not realizing it. And a fear of judgment.

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Gerry Scullion (21:17.933)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (21:23.833)

And actually, as I began to pull back and realize that actually me over helping was blurring the lines of where my responsibility and my role begun and ended and the responsibility of somebody else's role because I was over helping. I was blurring the lines between my role and theirs. And so there the confusion was coming between me and them as to, but, Emmy, you did this before or actually know it's your department that does it. It was like, no, no, no, that was a one -off isolated instance where we helped.

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And so because of my behaviors, I was blurring the line and things weren't clear. And so I was adding to that drama triangle and allowing it to spin. But I thought helping and, know, getting trying to get everybody on side by helping was actually the right thing to do. But yeah, it was actually having the opposite effect. And so I needed to uncover. You can say to them, right, I'm going to stop helping. But you have this natural urge. You're like, I have this natural urge to help.

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Gerry Scullion (21:58.007)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (22:12.856)

Wow.

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Gerry Scullion (22:20.796)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (22:23.141)

And so I was like, what is this urge about? And sometimes you're like, you're in meetings and you feel super guilty then if you're not going to offer to help. And so I had to go on a journey to figure out what all that guilt was about. And it came back to fear of judgment and fear of being disliked. And so I had to learn to overcome those fears to be able to continue to deepen my relationship with myself, to be able to more clearly and effectively communicate.

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Gerry Scullion (22:40.279)

Wow.

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Emma Lynch (22:52.647)

projects, roles and responsibilities, holding people accountable. When we did offer help, it was understood that it was a time bound help and that it wasn't our responsibility. And so as a result, lines of communication got clearer. We owned in our department the right pieces of the pie. We asked others to own other parts, which we felt were their responsibility.

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Gerry Scullion (23:17.794)

Mm.

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Emma Lynch (23:18.191)

And so we began to get projects across the line because the communication lines of responsibility were terror and our boundaries were terror.

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Gerry Scullion (23:27.17)

Boundaries is a big one that I want to talk to you a bit more around because boundaries, both from a personal perspective and also as an externalization exercise when we're trying to create alignment is something that is critical in human centered design specifically, but also within service design where we create these visualization experiences of the external person, the third person, whoever it is, they could be fictional, could be personas, but being able to create these boundary objects.

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Emma Lynch (23:28.967)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (23:38.076)

Mm.

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Emma Lynch (23:57.403)

Mm -hmm.

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Gerry Scullion (23:57.428)

create alignment. So it's not my reality that has been lived here. It's the other reality that's being played out is a really empowering way from my own perspectives. What's your take on ensuring total alignment if you don't have access to visualization methods? You mentioned about communication styles and knowing your own boundaries. How do you start this off within a project if you work with people who

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dismiss the potential to get in touch with yourself.

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Emma Lynch (24:33.197)

Yeah, so I think it comes back to, I think it starts earlier. For me, like, I suppose it depends where I enter into the project. Working within companies and let's say, you know, starting a project, I would very much spend more time on, you know, the level of management that was endorsing the project and aligning with it and making sure that we were all on board first.

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Gerry Scullion (24:42.647)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (24:58.093)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (25:01.615)

as the steering committee for the project. And then if the steering committee, you know, and the individuals on the project executing are reporting up into all of these individuals on the steering committee, you know, if the steering committee are aligned, you'll get alignment. If I come in later into a project, it's already ongoing and now you're brought in, you know, as a third party to support and help, it's a very different kettle of fish, you know.

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Gerry Scullion (25:04.141)

OK.

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Gerry Scullion (25:17.366)

Okay.

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Emma Lynch (25:30.789)

And so then it's very much about patience and awareness and curiosity to be able to understand what buy -in is there from the different departments? Is this an individual's issue going on with a project? And so it's about allowing, you know, we mentioned this before, it's about allowing everybody to feel seen, heard and understood and bringing them with you.

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Gerry Scullion (25:55.085)

Hmm.

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Emma Lynch (26:00.249)

However, you can't let one individual drain the battery either in a project. But it's having enough self -awareness to know how to hold somebody unconditionally where they're at and for them not to feel judged. And then being able to navigate the conversation back on to the direction that you need to go. But it's a fine art and it takes time to learn the skill.

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Gerry Scullion (26:15.704)

Hmm.

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Gerry Scullion (26:26.903)

It is.

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Emma Lynch (26:30.691)

My biggest thing is I couldn't have learned the skill without learning how to recognize stuff within myself and going on my own journey of having to learn how to.

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Gerry Scullion (26:39.469)

Hmm.

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Emma Lynch (26:45.359)

you know, recognise and change certain elements of myself. Because you realise and understand the patience and respect and compassion you have to give to yourself as you go on that journey of change. So I think when you encounter conflict coming from individuals in a project then you can speak to them with a lot more compassion and non -judgment.

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Gerry Scullion (26:51.405)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (26:59.982)

Hmm.

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Gerry Scullion (27:07.98)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (27:11.109)

And you'll find that if you'd speak to somebody with non -judgment and they don't feel threatened by you, they will begin to join once they feel heard and and respected.

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Gerry Scullion (27:23.075)

I love all of this. don't know where to go next, but like generally speaking, I'm trying to think of the playing devil's advocate here in governments, in private sector and consultancies, especially in the upper echelon of leadership. If this message is heard and it's not wanted, it's seen out of place. It can be often discounted.

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Emma Lynch (27:31.121)

Yes.

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Emma Lynch (27:44.304)

Is anyone? Anyone?

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Gerry Scullion (27:48.026)

And even though we know and the listeners here are all probably nodding their heads in agreement to everything that you're saying. How do you how do you respond to leadership when they're like a journey like a voyage of self discovery to get this project over the line? Like just manage them. That's what I've been told. I'm like, well, first of all, management is a problem for me because I don't believe that people should be managed.

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I said people are empowered to do their own jobs, which is a separate conversation. But going back to the first question is really how do you respond? How do you demonstrate? don't like saying demonstrate the value to this because it's so rewarding and many, levels. What's your take and what's your suggestion on how to improve the chances of adoption?

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Emma Lynch (28:40.899)

Yeah, it only takes one person, I think, to begin to start a ripple effect. And if you, you can suggest it, but if it is rejected, it's respecting them in the opinion that they currently hold today. And that if you're going to move somebody, you need to move them. You need to be able to demonstrate.

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Gerry Scullion (28:49.154)

Mm.

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Gerry Scullion (29:03.0)

Mm

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Emma Lynch (29:10.865)

brief.

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Gerry Scullion (29:12.162)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (29:13.807)

And so therefore, if I come back to myself and I want to go on a journey and I can show that my team can produce X, Y, and Z results in X timeframe and that, you know, we are, you know, improving our productivity and our output and our metrics are improving. It's in the proof of that, that you can, they're kind of like, what's going on with Emma's group? You know, they're working really well together. And then it's like, what are you guys doing differently?

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It's like, but now you've got the proof to speak to why. And so now it's like, OK, I'm happy to tell you why. You know, but how much how much safety is there in the group for me to really tell you why? Yeah, and so I want to go on that journey, but I want it to be empowering for both sides. I want.

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Gerry Scullion (29:47.234)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (29:57.516)

Okay, I got it.

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Emma Lynch (30:08.689)

there to be safety that I'm not going to be judged. I can tell you why, what the ingredients and the recipe are of how we're collaborating so well together as a group. But is there an appetite for hearing something different and is there safety or is there going to be, am I going to be received with judgment? So you begin to have a conversation about how to have the conversation first before you have the conversation. And they might be like, God, Emma, like, why do we need to this coming? And if they're already judging the safety of it, well then the safety isn't there just yet.

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Gerry Scullion (30:16.397)

Hmm.

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Gerry Scullion (30:22.828)

You a choice.

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Gerry Scullion (30:28.044)

Yeah. Okay.

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Gerry Scullion (30:36.148)

Yeah. Yeah, they're not ready for us.

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Emma Lynch (30:40.465)

They're not ready to hear it yet. And that's okay. And that's the thing is like, you need to accept everybody for where they are in their journey. Because if somebody came to me and said, Emma, you need to stop over help. And I would have been like, what? Emma, you need to go on a personal journey. I would be like, yeah, yeah, whatever. It wasn't until I was ready to come to that, that I was able to go on it. Now it's not to say that you don't put in a boundary and say something either. You can say something.

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Gerry Scullion (30:43.48)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (31:04.514)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (31:09.585)

But you need to be ready that it could be received with criticism, it could be received with judgment, or could be received with acceptance. And you need to be ready for every eventuality if you're willing to put it out there to the universe and say it. But what happens, I think, typically is people say it, people might get judgment back in return, and then they judge back in return. And you're like, well, they're ridiculous for judging me, and I'm going to blame them now again.

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Gerry Scullion (31:15.81)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (31:23.682)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (31:37.125)

And it's like, no, I'm not going to, I'm going to sit with that frustration that I have, and I'm not going to project it back at them. I'm just going to say, okay, right now I accept. They're not ready to hear what I'm saying. And that that judgment of what I'm saying is a hundred percent about them and it's not about me.

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Gerry Scullion (31:58.04)

So you mentioned about Emma's team. OK, so Emma's teams are what's working well with Emma's teams. So say you've set the world on fire with their own personal journeys and everyone is reflecting. Talk to me about the rituals that happen to support the team and their growth.

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Is it something that there's one -on -one check -ins or is there a kind of team check -ins at once? Retrospectives is what it's probably known as in Agile. Walk me through what are the kind of rituals that happen throughout the year with the team.

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Emma Lynch (32:33.351)

So for me, the way I typically led it was everybody that was new into the team, you know, I would explain the theory behind drama and conflict. And I was like, want you just to understand the language, the terminology. So we're aligned on our language that we're going to use. And then after that, for me, you know,

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Conversations fall into one on ones or your development conversations or it would be, you know, something came up in the day. Somebody was having something difficult going on with another colleague and there was always open door. Right. Come talk to me. Let's check through it. I would much prefer to talk to you in those organic moments because those organic moments hold so much wisdom of normally when there's chaos, everybody's playing a part. And if I can get

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Gerry Scullion (33:04.664)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (33:28.313)

a team member to understand their part in that moment organically in that moment. That is a hundred times more valuable than us talking about it a week later in a one -to -one. So for me, the biggest thing was, right, find me in the day, talk to me about that exact example, because the wisdom of what's gone on in that moment, if we're closer to it.

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Gerry Scullion (33:40.805)

Okay.

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Emma Lynch (33:54.297)

I can ask you the right question, you can understand your part and you can understand how to proceed. So for me, was the organic thing. Sorry.

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Gerry Scullion (34:00.283)

I love that. Do you see yourself as a manager? Do you see would you see yourself as a manager?

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Emma Lynch (34:08.039)

no, I like you. I'm not mad about the term. I much prefer like we are a group of people that are

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Gerry Scullion (34:13.603)

Mm.

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Emma Lynch (34:21.297)

We're trying to make things happen together. And it's about trying to do it in a way where we're all equal. The only difference between us is a level of responsibility. So, or a difference in responsibility. So your responsibility in relation to this project is this, my responsibility in the project is this, know, coaching the people to be able to keep us moving at speed. Your responsibility is this aspect of the project.

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Gerry Scullion (34:23.256)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (34:33.528)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (34:49.827)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (34:50.023)

So it's either different types of responsibility or, you know, I might have a different level of responsibility into what I'm allowed to prove financially on a budget, you know? And so it's from a people perspective, I do believe though that if you don't go on that journey inwards and the more people that report to you, you can have a higher negative impact if you're not very self -aware because

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Gerry Scullion (35:16.942)

Yeah, 100%. You do damage.

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Emma Lynch (35:18.477)

it can ricochet down like a waterfall. So I think if you move into a level of responsibility, you know, with a responsibility for the care and the service of people, that there should be a responsibility to ensure that you're continuing your journey inward to mature. Because it can compound down on top of individuals in a very difficult way. So for me, it's about

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Gerry Scullion (35:31.437)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (35:44.994)

Thanks

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Emma Lynch (35:48.101)

We're in this together, we just have different responsibilities.

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Gerry Scullion (35:51.31)

So what was your level of responsibility within the organization when you start to talk about this openly with the group?

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Emma Lynch (35:59.943)

So I suppose probably in when most of my time was in Pfizer and in Ireland I was responsible for one period for about 75 % of the Pfizer Ireland portfolio from a medical affairs perspective. So but we had a really lean team to manage that portfolio and so

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Gerry Scullion (36:18.605)

Mm.

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Emma Lynch (36:25.735)

productivity and how we engage with internal and external stakeholders, we needed to be super efficient in how we did that. And so our level of self -awareness to be able to stay calm in the chaos or in order to navigate around conflict, I felt became our, you know, the piece that we needed to really sharpen and get right. And because

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Gerry Scullion (36:35.374)

Mm.

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Emma Lynch (36:53.401)

We were such a lean team managing a large scope of products. So yeah, so was probably in that role that really, it really started playing a major part.

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Gerry Scullion (37:03.702)

in the pudding then for the proof is in the pudding for management and your management management style there's that word again so they were able to say well it's working so let them let them away let them let them do their thing like you know

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Emma Lynch (37:09.253)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (37:16.987)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (37:20.136)

One of the pieces that is a quote, and I've repeated it many times in this podcast, it's by Ilya Prigogine and their background is in complexity and they're a physicist. But the quote is when a complex system is far from equilibrium, small islands of coherence in a sea of chaos have the capacity to shift the entire system to a higher order.

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So the reason I was asking that last question in particular was, you already at that position where you had higher responsibility? So for people listening, what would you say to them if they don't have that higher level of responsibility? Is this still something providing there is a safe space for people to be able to raise and suggest these things, to start thinking and introducing these concepts amongst their teams?

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Emma Lynch (38:11.559)

100 % I believe there is. The thing is, is there safety for them to do it? So it's fine for, let's say, if I was new into an organization and I have the awareness.

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Gerry Scullion (38:19.213)

Hmm.

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Emma Lynch (38:29.081)

I can still continue on my journey and still practice and learn from the engagements I'm having around me. The thing is, do I have enough trust in the people around me and the safety with the people around me for me to start introducing those topics? As you go deeper in your relationship with yourself, you become more grounded and people feel it from you. Whether you're, you know, in a team, in a room.

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Gerry Scullion (38:43.608)

Mm.

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Gerry Scullion (38:50.838)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (38:55.099)

people, the deeper you go, people get more drawn to it because you're more grounded and you're more calm in the eye of any storm. So it doesn't have to always be said. It can be energetically just attracted over time that people are like, my God, OK, I like how they think or like how they responded. You don't necessarily need to discuss the journey and the concepts. And so even just being and doing the work for yourself quietly.

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Gerry Scullion (39:16.556)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (39:22.917)

just how you show up day to day in your job, people will feel it from you. And then the question is, do you raise it with the people around you to introduce them to it, or do you wait to be invited? You need to navigate that understanding, the trust and the safety that there is there with the individuals around you. Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (39:41.902)

Yeah, I love all of this. I it's brilliant. I have a question for you that's left field that's coming out of this. So I'm a parent of a little boy and a little girl. And I'd love to know how this permeates into your parenting style and how you're kind of introducing this to your children because you've got a 10 year old and a 12 year old. I'd love to know. Yeah, Apple of money size.

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Emma Lynch (39:49.096)

Go for it.

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Emma Lynch (39:52.965)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (40:03.466)

Yeah. Yeah. Two boys, and 12. Yeah. It's totally, I suppose it coincided with I was doing it, starting out doing it from a work perspective. And the more I went on the journey, the more and the boys were small. you know, I'm trying to think. Yeah. When I kind of started working on all of this stuff, my second guy was just born. And so

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Gerry Scullion (40:17.259)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (40:28.834)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (40:33.477)

I suppose every six months, every year I've gone on this journey understanding myself deeper. It has transformed me as to how I parent and how I respond to them. know, you know.

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Don't get me wrong, I still react and go, and then I'm like, but I know it's my responsibility to pull myself back in ground and kind of go, no, no, no, it's not your responsibility. I don't want you like as my kids to internalize that. And I will own it kind of going, okay, I was overtired, overwhelmed. It's my job as your mama to be grounded and rested and balanced. That's not a you thing. That's a me thing. So I will apologize for, let's say, projecting something.

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Gerry Scullion (40:53.282)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (41:14.759)

And they're like, okay. So I know like it's taken me time to kind of continually improve 1 % all of the time on that and keep that, those 1 % keep compounding. So my language today as to how I parent versus when they were toddlers has dramatically changed, but it's been a gradual change over time. I don't know if you ask them the question, they'd probably be like, wow, she's still not there. Yeah. Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (41:21.912)

really.

‍

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (41:32.493)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (41:37.962)

Yeah, I was going to say it's from don't grab them. But in terms of like, is there rituals or things that you do to introduce them to look inwards? I guess is what I'm asking in terms of, you know, there could be a line of questioning, you know, that you could introduce to the child, because I know a lot of people.

‍

kids who listen to the podcast, not everyone has kids. I know that. But I'd be really interested to hear what your perspective is and to try and create that internal dialogue and improve that internal dialogue. So we're not perpetuating what our childhood was like. And we're not saying our childhoods were all bad folks, but we did grow up in a pretty conservative Ireland in the 80s and 90s. I'd love to know how you're trying to explore and extend their minds.

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Emma Lynch (42:27.771)

Yeah, like I suppose it's in the moments I think that I can have the biggest impact as opposed to structuring something kind of more formal. So depending on, you know, how if they're fighting with each other, how do I do I react or do I respond to it? Or, you know, if they're not going to bed at nighttime and they're resistant bedtime, do I get fly off the handle and get annoyed with them or do I, you know?

‍

center myself and respond to them. And so you never know what moments are going to come your way. And so I need to be very in tune with me to be able to respond to any moment that might come. So it always comes back to, it's not about them. It's about me and how grounded I am to respond to anybody that I engage with in my day, whether it's my kids, whether it's my parents, whether it's my friends, whatever the case may be. And so

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Gerry Scullion (43:19.832)

Yeah, absolutely.

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Emma Lynch (43:27.503)

If I'm continually aware of communicating with myself and what my unmet needs are and meeting those needs to ground myself, then I will be the majority of the time in a position to respond with curiosity and compassion to the kids rather than, you know, reactive to them. Now granted, there are rules in the house, you know, so definitely I have a structure of kind of values that I want the house to live by.

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Gerry Scullion (43:43.459)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (43:55.289)

And so I'm kind of like constantly teaching them going, you know, that's breaking the values of the house. You know, I started out doing rules, but the rules started getting long and lengthy. And then I was like, no, this isn't really fair. And so then I was like, OK, what are the values of the house? And so.

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Gerry Scullion (43:59.874)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (44:09.13)

What are the values? Do you me asking? Tell us some of the values, not all of them.

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Emma Lynch (44:12.075)

Yeah, so there's only two at the moment. So it's integrity and respect, but it's respect for self first and then respect for others. Yeah. And so everything they do, like if they're fighting, if they're OK, guys, you know what? This is not with the values of the house. You know, I need to stop if they don't stop.

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Gerry Scullion (44:22.912)

Okay, well they're lovely. We definitely aligned to them in this podcast. So cool.

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Emma Lynch (44:39.247)

you know, then it's like, OK, what's my boundary? Yeah. What's my boundary here? I'm like, OK, I'm going to, you know, sometimes get in and separate the two of them or I'm going to step away and not give any more energy to it. when the when their energy settles, then I come back to talk to them about it. And so, yeah, but it all stems from am I am I communicating with myself well enough yet to keep myself grounded? Yeah. Yeah. But they do have a great

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Gerry Scullion (44:40.45)

You're going to increase the rent.

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Gerry Scullion (45:02.69)

your own self. Absolutely.

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Emma Lynch (45:08.945)

have a journal every night now that they do at night time before bed. That's for a bit of So that's the only other thing maybe that they do.

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Gerry Scullion (45:12.024)

Journal, yeah?

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Gerry Scullion (45:15.724)

Wow, very advanced things happening up there in the North Louth. I'm very impressed. was going to say you are on a journey, of your own kind of you mentioned about your journey of entrepreneurship and you're going through that at the moment and you're part of Dogpatch, which technically I'm part of Dogpatch as well. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the project and the business that you're launching at the moment and where you're at with that?

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Emma Lynch (45:30.427)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (45:45.093)

Yeah, so I suppose given my pharma background, you know, the ongoing problem that's growing year on year, I suppose, is around critical medicine shortages, both into hospital and into community pharmacy, and obviously having a big impact then to patients.

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And the other area that since I've started doing research on that with community and hospital pharmacy, the other area that's having a big impact on patients is medication errors. So I suppose looking at my lifestyle in Barma, the next roles for me were to kind of move to a role maybe within Europe and a significant higher level of travel.

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Gerry Scullion (46:17.312)

Okay.

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Emma Lynch (46:32.497)

But I suppose that didn't align with who I wanted to be as a parent. So I didn't want to be on the plane all the time. So I kind of decided to make that call going, okay, what career can I design now to be able to balance kind of family life, the mother I want to be and what sort of career do I want to have? So I wanted to focus on areas that, you know, I had seen firsthand the pain of, you know, something not working well.

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Gerry Scullion (46:35.768)

Mm.

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Gerry Scullion (46:41.762)

leap.

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Gerry Scullion (46:45.987)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (46:57.863)

And I suppose that medicine supply chain shortages pieces, what I had observed from the pharma side. And there's lots of, you know, really well -intentioned, good people in pharma trying to avoid all of those scenarios all of the time, but obviously it's having, you know, can have an impact. And so I was like, okay, with that knowledge on that side, can I understand the other side from the healthcare's perspective and see, can I build something to begin a journey of, you know, building something out that can help.

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Gerry Scullion (47:01.432)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (47:25.987)

Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (47:26.255)

So yeah, so I suppose I've gone on a journey. started building and another player came into the market from a political standpoint that now has set me back. And so now I'm back down to grassroots, back to customer discovery again to see, okay, now knowing this new political change in the environment, how can I go back now to grassroots and begin to design again? so yeah, that kind of was a big massive.

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Gerry Scullion (47:37.655)

OK.

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Gerry Scullion (47:50.189)

Okay.

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Emma Lynch (47:53.995)

suck in the mouth. But again, life is happening for you, not against you. like, okay, I need to, I hadn't seen the political piece coming. So I'm like, okay, note to self, I need to be able to factor and navigate that and, and be able to, I suppose, constantly keep that risk register on what it is I'm doing. So I'm back down to grassroots designing again, and

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Gerry Scullion (47:55.784)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (48:05.646)

Hmm.

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Emma Lynch (48:22.747)

being more vigilant, yeah, more aware, more knowledgeable now, this time out trying to design again. Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (48:22.839)

I love us.

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Gerry Scullion (48:28.204)

Yeah, Emma, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It's been brilliant to reconnect and to chat about everything that you're doing. And I'm learning an awful lot from just speaking with you.

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Emma Lynch (48:33.231)

Bye, y 'all.

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Gerry Scullion (48:41.25)

So thanks for coming on. And as I mentioned in our emails, like we don't do questions or any of these kind of things. So like I love having just natural conversations on this podcast. And it takes a level of vulnerability to be put on the spot and be recorded and all of that. So thank you so much for your vulnerability and coming on the show. And, you know, it was fascinating to hear your perspective and a lot of these things, which I know the community are going to love listening to. If people want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you and connect?

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Emma Lynch (48:51.43)

Yeah.

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Gerry Scullion (49:11.194)

with you.

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Emma Lynch (49:12.872)

So I suppose LinkedIn, Emma Lynch on LinkedIn or Emma at EQvibration .com is my email. So either route if they want to get connected.

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Gerry Scullion (49:21.006)

Okay, nice, yeah.

‍

Awesome. I'll put a link to both of those into the show notes. Let us know you're getting on with the start up. I have no doubt it is going to be a massive success. Definitely. I don't think we need any fingers crossed. think, you know, with everything that you said today, you're definitely on the right track. So best of luck with that.

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Emma Lynch (49:30.287)

Yeah. Fingers crossed. Yeah.

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Emma Lynch (49:41.445)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks, Amelia, for having me. Good to chat. See ya. Bye.

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Gerry Scullion (49:49.891)

I got a new monitor the other day and it's fucking

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