Jay Hasbrouck ‘The power of ethnographic thinking in Design’

GERRY SCULLION: Hello and welcome to another episode of ‘This is HCD’. My name is Gerry Scullion and I’m a human centred design practitioner based in Sydney, Australia.

Before we jump in, however, as this podcast was recorded in the Sydney CBD I’d like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora nation as the traditional custodians of the land where we meet today and pay respect to their elders both past and present.

In this episode, we caught up with Jay Hasbrouck, author of a highly recommended ‘Ethnographic Thinking’ book. I’ll put a link to the book in the show notes.

So in this episode we go through what ethnographic thinking is and how it should be applied to inform richer contextual insights for design teams and how designers have abused or misunderstood ethnography and even touch on some retail rituals in the US and talk about how going off-piste in Jay’s research plan in Japan led him to a shoe hotel and all the rich insights about the culture that followed.

So let’s jump straight in.

Jay Hasbrouck a very warm welcome to ‘This is HCD’ podcast.

JAY HASBROUCK: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here, Gerry.

GERRY SCULLION: Jay let’s get started and tell us a little bit about how you got involved in the world of ethnography.

JAY HASBROUCK: Sure my background’s in anthropology, social anthropology in particular and I came to anthropology I’d say sort of in the back door. I was interested in visual anthropology at first and then the whole concept of how ideology drives behaviour and how those behaviours are then in many ways reinforced in ideologies. And from there I moved on to some very applied word both at Intel and IDO and for the past 10 years I’ve had my own consultancy.

GERRY SCULLION: Excellent and you’ve just completed, well recently in the last year, the book ‘Ethnographic Thinking’ which I’m currently working my way through and it’s a fascinating read. So thanks for your time for joining us today. So let’s start a little bit more about understanding ethnography is to you; how would you describe it maybe to a young child?
JAY HASBROUCK: Sure, ethnography can be described most simply as the study of people and cultures from the perspective of the subject or the person that’s in that culture. And so that’s sort of the general working definition. In the book ‘Ethnographic Thinking’ is a different beast. I define that as the thought processes and the sort of ways of being and interacting and seeing the world that develop when people practice ethnography on a regular basis so it’s a disposition, I would say.

GERRY SCULLION: So what kind of work do you tend to do on a day to day basis?

JAY HASBROUCK: It’s a combination of things. I’d say a good bulk of what I do is really focused on analysis and strategy. There’s definitely some field work and the research side but I think some of the really heavy lifting comes in when you need to make sense of that, bring some meaning and interpretation to what happens in the field, use that data and those insights as a way to ladder up to the kinds of strategies and real implications that my clients need.

GERRY SCULLION: Right. So who do you tend to work with? Not talking about clients but in terms of practitioners or skill sets that you’d be working side by side with?

JAY HASBROUCK: It’s a combination. I never work alone so I’m usually working with designers, that’s first and foremost. Occasionally I’ll be working with creators like a writing team or other kinds of people who are involved interaction designers as well of course and then eventually, depending on the project, sometimes engineers and people who are strategists or marketing professionals to get that sort of integrated portion of the insights driven through an organisation.

GERRY SCULLION: Okay which is a great segue because one of the bits in your book I mentioned earlier before we started recording was there’s a couple of pieces where you challenge the role of design and one piece in particular you state ‘in short ethnographers tend to ask why while designers aim towards what. The relationship is often symbiotic in practice but they are also at odds empirically’.

So tell me a little bit more about your experience with design and what led you to this conclusion?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah my experience with design, it probably pre-dates my time at IDO but it was I think a really formative period when I was at IDO directly involved with a design culture, I would put it. And what I want to do with the book is I want to draw attention to the limited ways that ethnography has traditionally been integrated into the design process. I’m not the first person to have made this argument. There are others; Paul Dourish and Ken Anderson, also at Intel, they’ve both talked about well it’s a really pretty limited lens when you think about ethnography as only a tool for collecting data for the design process.

So what I’m trying to do with the book is show that it’s a complex relationship. It’s great that design has allowed ethnography to have the visibility and demonstrated the value of ethnography but at the same time I think a lot of ethnographers, we haven’t been as assertive enough about owning and directing the value that’s brought to the table, other than just insights from customers.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah so by ‘design’ what do you mean? Like are you talking service design, user experience design or is it traditional visual design?

JAY HASBROUCK: No it’s human centred design.

GERRY SCULLION: Human-centred design because in my experience, coming from a service design background, we would always ask why and is that something that you’ve, the legacy that you’ve seen like there’s a change in the industry because designers in my experience always ask why and that’s the bit that kind of stood out to me in the first chapter. I was like actually, I don’t know if I agree with that.

JAY HASBROUCK: What I was trying to get at there was the trajectory of the two approaches and that in many ways they are symbiotic, like they actually work side by side really well. If you’ve got a designer, yes they’re asking why at the front end in particular of the design process but eventually they’re trying to drive towards a ‘what’. They’re trying to get toward that solution or that thing or that collection of things. Whereas I think an ethnographer is just by nature, in terms of the disposition, the ethnographic thinking disposition that they bring to the table, are really much more comfortable in many ways of opening questions up because that’s what they do all the time, right? They’re always asking why; you know they ask those types of questions and so I don’t see them as necessarily opposed. I just think it’s worth considering that there are different trajectories and then there is that history that I mentioned earlier where it’s like seeing ethnography as only a tool versus something that can be used; you know if you think about ethnography as that sort of opening up in the process, it makes sense that that should happen throughout the design process, not just as the beginning, sort of explore phase.

GERRY SCULLION: Absolutely. You’re definitely not going to get any pushback from me in thinking that the two are symbiotic. I definitely see the two of them going you know hand in hand and working like superpowers when they’re brought together so to speak.

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah I think so in a lot of ways. One of the things that I think that, speaking of the added value of ethnographic thinking as well, is if you do embed this sort of continual opening up sort of why approach of ethnographic thinking throughout the design process, you start to see the value of that kind of, the insider/outsider status that an ethnographer brings to the table and you start to be able to incorporate the cultural dynamics of that company or the client’s offering, if you’re working in a consultancy.

So it’s more than just the sort of focus on the design brief, it’s okay what is that design brief swimming, for example.

GERRY SCULLION: So what do you see when you go into organisations? What do you see in regards to how designers are researching? What problems do you see in their research methods?

JAY HASBROUCK: I think that in some cases you’re starting to see a lot of people claiming they can do ethnography and not really giving it a lot of careful consideration. That is a problem because you know sitting in someone’s living room for half an hour doesn’t necessarily mean you’re doing ethnography. So I think that there are some challenges there around you know and I’m not like a rigid disciplinarian myself anyway. I mean I think that we’re all crossing disciplinary boundaries all the time but I still believe there’s a certain amount of dedication to the discipline no matter where you’re dabbling that should take place. So I think there is a little bit of slap dash going on out there around you know how do you apply? How do you get ethnography and some of that could come from pressures from above where they’ve been told they need to check the ethnography box. So just go out there and do it you know and then tell us what you’ve learnt.

GERRY SCULLION: We’ve done the ethnography bit so let’s move on. Is that what you’re saying?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah exactly.

GERRY SCULLION: So how do you think designers have abused or misunderstood the research method or ethnography in general?

JAY HASBROUCK: Well I think it sort of relates to what we were just talking about; that some of the time you’ll see this misinterpretation of ethnography as a practice where you just go ask people what they want and they tell you and you just tell people what exactly people said without adding a layer of interpretive value to that experience. Or the team goes ahead and just design what they felt like they wanted to do anyway and they start looking for the data that will prove what they wanted in the first place.

GERRY SCULLION: So what kind of things do you do in that instance because obviously, you need to start somewhere? What kind of tactics should designers be doing more of in terms of the craft of ethnography thinking?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah I think what I found the most valuable, and this definitely does cross disciplines and I think people respond to is, is really trying to anchor and substantiate your insights so you can trace them, you know you can go from a field insight to a set of patterns that you see across those field experiences, use some large themes and then some insights that the team is bringing that is sort of unique about you and then you can trace those all the way back for someone when you’re presenting them or even within the team so that you see that what you’ve got there is substantiated, you’re building knowledge as you’re building the project. And I found that that tends to be a very valuable and you start to see, it makes the process very transparent and it anchors it.

GERRY SCULLION: Is that what you’re referring to as regards designers using the word ‘synthesis’ versus ethnographers using the word ‘analysis’?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah I think some of that was also built on what we were talking about earlier around different trajectories of the two practices and how you see synthesis in many ways being a narrowing practice that sometimes can be too eager to rush towards a solution whereas analysis implies a more open approach; that there are you know dynamics in the consideration that doesn’t all come to a point that it may come to 10 points or it may come to a swirl for that matter or a grid. So I think that’s sort of what I was getting at with the differences there.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah absolutely. So how do you think ethnography or ethnographic thinking, I’m using your term in terms of the book, how should that be applied in terms of the innovation process?

JAY HASBROUCK: I think that one of the things where it could add a lot more value is making sure that ethnographic thinking is part of the entire design process, the entire innovation process, so it doesn’t get stuck at the front end and then just sort of tossed away but that some of that thinking about bringing in alternative lenses, you know cross-pollinating ideas, you know walking this thin line between the insider and the outsider status. All those things that kind of open this kind of exploratory approach, and as we talked about, this interpretative layer that goes with it as you build a case.

All those things are valuable throughout the process so you could be at the prototyping stage and when you’re in that stage that often is a stage in which yes you may be learning and refining you know and getting toward a better design. At the same time, you might also be uncovering new opportunities that would be lost in the process if you didn’t fold in this sort of opening that happens with ethnographic thinking.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah absolutely. So a lot of that work that you were just speaking about there is looking outward. Have you experienced looking inward with regards to the biases that the teams may have and how that may be applied to the research?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah definitely. There’s two layers to that I think; one looking inward is really interesting to think about looking at a company’s culture in general or you know it could be a consultancy or a large corporation or any kind of organisation. That doesn’t exist in a vacuum. I think a lot of people oftentimes presume that it does, right? It has a relationship to customers, it has a relationship to stakeholders that are out there influencing those customers. So seeing that dynamic is really productive and that’s one of the things that ethnographers do a lot of is take insight from lots of different domains and then reach some kind of meaningful interpretation. So it’s a very comfortable spot for ethnographers to exist in. And then within teams as well I think if you go one step down in granularity, that kind of reflexive approach to the team is very helpful as well where you’re saying ‘you know let’s apply some of this thinking to ourselves. Let’s take a good look at how it is that we interact. What kinds of values are we prioritising and the kinds of questions that we’re asking? What are the power dynamics at play there that are influencing our product?’

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah so one of the things that in my experience is when I’ve been working with organisations is trying to sell in this type of thinking into I guess the stakeholders or whoever it is. So what’s your experience in regards trying to sell-in ethnography in regards to trying to get a design outcome?

JAY HASBROUCK: It’s always tough. I mean I have to be honest here and I think part of the challenge is that it’s one of these things where it’s not like a product where you know hey here’s this thing, $30, do you want it or not, you know?

GERRY SCULLION: There’s no output. Well, there is an output, yeah.

JAY HASBROUCK: There is always a learning curve but I do think that it’s much, much more helpful to point to the ways in which it applies and the ways in which it adds value to any kind of initiative and in that case I think it’s really most useful to talk about those insights as having strategic value, to inform questions of ‘how’ in an organisation; how are we going to do this? How are we going to reach a new market? How are we going to better understand consumer behaviour in this respect? Or how can we introduce a new product in Egypt? All those things are more than just visiting living rooms, as we talked about earlier. It’s a matter of developing the insights that can lead to some directions and some real decisions that can be made about how to do those things.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah absolutely and just reading your book, there’s a fantastic case study in there where you went to I think it was Japan. So tell us a little bit about the story of I think it’s the Shoe hotel?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah that was it was a real eye opener I think for everyone on the team, including myself. We’d spent a lot of time doing exploratory research for this client and the client was with us in the field, which I love, and we were really trying to get a sense of what does it look like? You know what does retail look like from a whole different perspective within their offerings, which was mostly health and beauty, a little bit of house care, home care. So we did a lot of looking around, immersed ourselves in tons of different experiences.

GERRY SCULLION: So what does that look like? Just to stop you there, what does it look like in terms of like you were looking around in terms of the method, what were you doing? Was it just going through scenarios and interviewing people? Walk me through that.

JAY HASBROUCK: The interviews would be on the fly. Basically, what we did, there’s a larger research plan that also did involve actual interviews and some one-on-ones but this was the observational portion of our research so it really involved using observational protocols, thinking about what are the kinds of things we want to target. So, for example, one of the things we wanted to look at is how might service be tied to the product in ways that we haven’t thought of. So we went to buy a set of knives, for example, and really think about you know how this is this different than where you might buy a set of knives in other parts of the world and pay close attention to what are the expectations of both parties? And you may be asking questions along the way but you’re also just being immersed in the process, thinking about you know what is it that’s being communicated and exchanged here? And I’m sure if you’ve been you know that it’s the whole retail process is unique in a lot of ways, it’s filled with ritual and lots of, there are some small formalities and a lot of things built into the expectations between the seller and the buyer.

GERRY SCULLION: So what is it about those ceremonies that, how have they originated?

JAY HASBROUCK: Well I mean I think they exist in every country. I was just reading the other day that in the United States, which I’d never thought about because obviously I’m American and but it surprises some people that the way in which you use cash and the way in which you’re expected to present cash is, in most circumstances in an orderly way, it’s just to have the bills with the face up, folded out.

GERRY SCULLION: Really?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah and it’s true, I do it and I think a lot of other people do it too. And I don’t know really I can’t for the life of me remember why I do it but handing over like folded or crumpled bills is considered disrespectful. So it’s those kinds of practices that I think are…

GERRY SCULLION: Wow, I had no idea.

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah lots of different origins and you know that could come from some form of patriotism, who knows. But in Japan, I do think it comes from expectations around what value is the seller offering and also what are the expectations of respect that the buyer has as well.

GERRY SCULLION: Yes so just going back to the shoe hotel though so I know the listeners may not have read the book. I totally recommend that you go buy the book but tell us more about that story, about how that came about.

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah so anyway we were wandering, towards the end of the day we’d made lots visits and we were wandering on our way back to the hotel and we came across this storefront that had the shingle hanging outside what looked like a cobbler, a shoe. But then when we looked in the window, it looked more like a hotel or a lobby or something. It was very formal and very ornate. There were a couple of lounge chairs, very wood panelled walls and obviously we were curious and we decided to go in and this wasn’t on our research plan at all. This didn’t fit the bill but we decided to venture in. When we went in we noticed that in the very far back there was a cobbler in this white cube and a woman who was actually doing some shoe repair work. She was the owner, we found out later. So we went to ask her you know what is this place? – it looks unusual to us and would you share with us what you do here? And she proceeded to tell us that she was doing some shoe repair and told us about the repairs and while we were there someone came in, this young guy came in, made a phone call, sat down and then he decided to get up and interact with someone else and what we realised after we saw him go through a series of exchanges where the person helping him brought out a pair of shoes, showed him the shoes and put them back on a shelf and went to another sliding panel, opened that up, pulled out a pair of shoes and showed him those, put them back.

We started realising this isn’t just a cobbler, it actually was a shoe hotel and because in Japan so many people are living in very, especially in Tokyo, living in very small apartments, many of them didn’t have the room to store their shoes so they used this service. And the value, what was really interesting was, the value that the owner was providing was a really wide range of things, not only was she storing and caring for your shoes but she was also identifying trends and telling us customers across one another, ‘oh you know this is hot and this is new and you should see this pair of shoes’. And so she’d added this whole other layer to her offering that you know to a connoisseur’s level, to a product that we would never have occurred to us had we not just been curious, right? I mean really genuinely curious. It wasn’t our research plan, it wasn’t checking a box, it really was just sort of getting out there in the world.

GERRY SCULLION: So what can you take from that as regards and what have you learned and how have you applied that type of off the cuff research into other projects?

JAY HASBROUCK: Well I think one of the things that I have learned is that there are a couple of things; I think always stretching beyond the research plan is always going to be valuable in one way or another, typically. And if it isn’t valuable for that project, stick with it because curiosity has longitudinal value eventually. You know you can start cross-referencing ideas in ways that you would never expect; you see that often on projects where you’re going through the analysis process and you’re starting to compare different domains of experiences that fed into the project. But I think that they’re very important takeaways for me.

GERRY SCULLION: Okay great. I totally see that myself whenever I’m conducting research that you can sit down with somebody for 30/40 minutes in their home but it’s usually the journey between their home and their car where the information starts to come out; when they’ve finished the ceremony of research almost.

JAY HASBROUCK: Totally. I mean the one thing I have learned, just a small tip, is after everybody has thought that the interview is over, leave that recorder on because that’s when the real stuff comes out often, right? That question you forgot to ask or there’s something that they forgot to mention.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah the pearls of wisdom. When they feel it’s over they’re almost like ‘oh man, I don’t know if I answered your question right because I thought this was actually the real problem’ and they deliver it then.

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah.

GERRY SCULLION: So we’re coming towards the end of the episode here but I’ve got one or two other questions that I really want to ask. This is from the Slack channel actually; one of the girls there had asked ‘how does design thinking and ethnography thinking differ?’

JAY HASBROUCK: I think that there’s in terms of methods I think there’s a lot of overlap but one of the things that I think, there are a few things that I think ethnographic thinking brings to the process that make it unique and in ways that are different to design thinking. One is this adapted methods approach where it’s you’re getting in the field and actually the Tokyo story is a good example where you want to get out there and certainly you want to collect the data that’s most relevant but you also want to be thinking on your feet enough to make sure that you’re open and truly genuinely curious about what’s around you so that you get that broader context. Not all designers do that, some do, some don’t but that’s something that is sort of embedded within ethnographic thinking. And then there are other things like learning through cultural immersion, you know beyond what your design brief is but still related to the design briefs or these deep dives that are really focused on the culture you know; waiting in line to mail a letter in a place that’s not familiar to you, you know? Things like that when you’re really trying to do a lot of absorbing with all of your senses.

GERRY SCULLION: And the ethnography tends to be throughout as opposed in the design thinking process just looking at the Double Diamond and it’s more about that empathy and that research up front and so it’s continuous research really throughout to inform all stages of the journey so to speak.

JAY HASBROUCK: And applying it to them, as you mentioned earlier, applying some of that thinking to the team as well.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah no absolutely. The inward thinking is huge for me in regards to the culture and being able to deliver that service.

So Jay one final question in this part is what do you think the future of ethnography is within the world of innovation? I know we touched on it earlier before but I’m keen to go a little bit deeper into that piece.

JAY HASBROUCK: I think some of what’s on the horizon now is, people are starting to realise the holistic perspective of ethnographic thinking that’s helping put some of our insights into context better. So really trying to get an understanding that customers don’t exist in a vacuum, companies don’t exist in a vacuum, that there are lots of ways in which both are influenced, that relationship is influenced. So really getting a sense of what does the dynamic look like and pulling insights from that dynamic so that they can inform innovation strategies. So it isn’t just, it’s really getting a more holistic perspective in general, already starting to see that.

GERRY SCULLION: Absolutely. Do you think ethnography can live in-house?

JAY HASBROUCK: I do. I do and I’ve seen it. It does live in-house in different companies. I think that so when you start thinking about it in that language, you start thinking about okay some of the value you get there are people who can really recalibrate perspectives within a company itself or an organisation; you know, know when to apply the broader lens or the narrow lens or shift the scope in some way. And then also I would say that you’re starting to see increasing cases of people taking on management and leadership roles who are trained in ethnography because they can really start to integrate those disparate perspectives; you know expand perspective and facilitate. Those are also the core components of ethnographic thinking.

GERRY SCULLION: Absolutely and enable the organisation culture to develop more into that innovative culture.

JAY HASBROUCK: Mmmm.

GERRY SCULLION: So we’re just going to move into the final part of the episode, Jay, and we’ve got three questions that we ask every guest. I don’t know if you’ve managed to listen to any other episodes.

JAY HASBROUCK: I did.

GERRY SCULLION: It’s kind of where I peel back the layers a little bit in trying to get to know you a little bit better but what is the one professional skill that you wish you were better at?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yes these are great questions, I noticed. I think for me I would prefer that I was better at responding on the spot although you know I think I did okay in the interview today but…

GERRY SCULLION: Oh this isn’t an interview, Jay, this is just a conversation.

(Laughter)

JAY HASBROUCK: But I think that my personal inclination is to kind of reflect and consider. So sometimes I’ll think back to an interaction and I’ll be like ‘you know what if I had said that’ you know? That might have changed the conversation in an entirely different direction so maybe I could respond on the spot more easily.

GERRY SCULLION: Do you reflect on conversations after they’ve happened.

JAY HASBROUCK: Oh yeah like obsessively.

GERRY SCULLION: Do you think that’s a bad thing?

JAY HASBROUCK: No I don’t I mean I think it’s probably actually one of the hazards of being an ethnographer in some ways because that’s what you do; you know you’re often thinking back. It’s a good way to exercise your memory, not only, but also to think through the meanings that were being exchanged there that went beyond just the words.

GERRY SCULLION: Yeah I’m totally the same as you. I reflect on everything.

So the second question, Jay, is what is the one thing for the industry that you wish you would be able to banish?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah I’ve thought about that one. I think I had two things; I would banish the words ‘intuition’ and the word ‘worry’. I think that I mean I think a lot of designers are with me on this too. This old-school notion of intuition that I kind of just know what it is you know? And somehow I have some sort of mysterious spiritual understanding of what to do you know and it’s really frustrating for me because I think you know that while there may be something as an informed opinion or a set of experiences that inform how you get to a space, I think that intuition is really given people licence to do whatever they want.

GERRY SCULLION: Do you think the intuition is wrapped up a little bit in the designer guru factor?

JAY HASBROUCK: I do, I do yeah. I mean I think like I said I think it’s fading I think in a lot of ways but there’s still a bit of it out there.

GERRY SCULLION: The creative director knows best.

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah and I am definitely an empiricist, right? It’s like well you better prove it to me like…

GERRY SCULLION: (laughs) Alright so the other one you said ‘worry’ that was ‘intuition’. What ‘worry’ do you want to be able to banish?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah worry really I think gives people licence in interactions to absolve themselves of responsibility because they can just sort of abstractly worry about an outcome rather than coming to the table with a solution or you know a challenge with a set of approaches you might take to get to a solution. So that one I’ve seen a little bit of an escape route. So those two words, I think.

GERRY SCULLION: Excellent. The final question, Jay, is what advice would you give to emerging design talent for the future?

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah I mean I think, of course, I’ll say this, there’s a lot of advice in the book but I think there are some top things that would be beneficial for anyone starting and throughout their career. One of them is staying curious, having the courage to re-frame assumptions with questions and to stretch beyond the plan.

GERRY SCULLION: What do you mean ‘stretch beyond the plan?’

JAY HASBROUCK: I mean you know you may have this route you’ve decided that makes sense whether it be a project plan or a research plan and I’m sure you know it’s been usually they are very well thought out but when you get on the field or when you get out there in the world or even when you’re in analysis of some stage being able to exercise beyond what you intended is almost always a good thing as long as you don’t lose sight and go too far astray.

GERRY SCULLION: Fantastic. Jay, we’re coming towards the very final piece here. How can people connect with you and how can they learn more about what you do?

JAY HASBROUCK: Sure yeah. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m there and I chat.

GERRY SCULLION: I’ll pop that in the show notes; a link to your LinkedIn is in the show notes.

JAY HASBROUCK: Great. I will most likely be at Epic 2018 this year in Honolulu which is the Ethnographic Practice and Industry Conference.

GERRY SCULLION: Nice.

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah so that will be awesome, aloha.

GERRY SCULLION: Sounds like you’ve got a tough life, Jay. Going to Hawaii for conferences, you guys are doing it really well.

JAY HASBROUCK: Yeah not my plan but I will certainly attend.

GERRY SCULLION: And I’ll drop a link to the book in the show notes as well. Jay thank you so much for your time today. It’s been absolutely brilliant speaking to you and we’d love to get you back on possibly in the future to discuss more because I definitely feel there’s huge value in your learning and sharing it across into the human centred design community.

JAY HASBROUCK: Thank you for having me, Gerry.

GERRY SCULLION: So there you have it. I hoped you enjoyed this episode and if you’d like to be part of the conversation or community, hop on over to thisishcd.com where you can request to join the Slack channel and help shape future episodes and connect with other designers around the world.

Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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