Unlocking Bravery in Design Leadership: An Engaging Discussion with Jill Schulman

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome to this eight cd and before we dive into today's conversation, I want to invite you personally to sign up for my free email course for designers who are frustrated by Roblox and are ready to create a human-centered workplace. If this sounds like you, well, I can tell you now that it's packed full of practical insights and tips to help you grow in your design career.

[00:00:19] Gerry Scullion: The link is below in the description, and also if you enjoy the show, please do like, subscribe, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us reach more people and growth community. Now let's get into today's episode. Today I am thrilled to welcome Jill Schulman to the podcast, and Jill is a leadership expert with a fascinating background as United States Marine Corps officer and founder of Breakthrough Leadership Group, where she helps organizations develop their leaders.

[00:00:47] Gerry Scullion: Through the science of bravery and positive psychology, and in this episode, we explore really what it truly means to be brave in the workplace, how organizations can foster bravery through psychological [00:01:00] safety, and why bravery isn't about being fearless. It's about taking action despite that fear. Now, Jill also shares powerful insights from our upcoming book.

[00:01:09] Gerry Scullion: The Science of Bravery explains how mindset, action, and relationships form the foundation of courageous leadership. I. So this is a perfect episode for anyone in Design Leadership. Let's jump straight in.

[00:01:31] Gerry Scullion: Well, Jill Schulman, I'm delighted to have you on the podcast. Um, a very warm welcome to this is, Hey, TD Jill, and maybe we'll start off, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where you from and what you

[00:01:43] Jill Schulman: Yeah, so I'm based in the US in. Sunny Southern California. That's where I live. Um, I ended up landing here.

[00:01:52] Jill Schulman: I grew up in the Midwest, in the US in Minnesota where it's really freaking cold, right? So I got smart and I thought, I wanna live somewhere a little bit warmer. But, [00:02:00] um, I started my career as a United States Marine Corps officer. So I started my career in the military and that brought me down to San Diego.

[00:02:07] Jill Schulman: I went to school and I was stationed for a majority of my time in. Um, and then when I decided to get outta the Marine Corps, I. Went to corporate America. My joke is I started by blowing stuff up for a living. Like literally that's what my marines did. We demolitions and then I decided to sell drugs, a legal kind.

[00:02:24] Jill Schulman: So I got into the pharmaceutical industry and, um, absolutely loved that industry. I was in sales, um, sales leadership for a number of years. Um, fell in love with science. Um, and um, the reason I do what I do now is even though I thought I knew everything about leadership. I went through a lot of leadership development classes 'cause I was with a big Fortune 100 company and they had such a profound impact on me.

[00:02:51] Jill Schulman: Like I realized I wasn't the great leader that I thought I was. And so I ended up, um, starting a business called Breakthrough Leadership Group. So now I, you know, my [00:03:00] company. Does leadership development for organizations, um, just because it had that profound impact on me. I love doing that for others. Um, and, and now I have a specific focus on positive psychology.

[00:03:14] Jill Schulman: I. And specifically the science of bravery. You know, after I've had my company for about nine years, you know, I'm always a science geek. I'll be citing studies. So sorry, I should get some nerd glasses on. Um, but I was just, I wanted to keep learning myself and growing myself. So I went back to school and I de decided to study, um, really the science of happiness and wellbeing, but specifically applied to the business environment.

[00:03:37] Jill Schulman: Okay. And, um. Learned so much about what I can bring back to organizations and then I ended up being interested in doing my deep dive into my studies on how bravery can, um, is a skill that can be developed and when people do it, leads to greater levels of success, but more importantly, higher levels of life satisfaction, wellbeing, [00:04:00] and happiness.

[00:04:01] Jill Schulman: So that's a little intro on me.

[00:04:03] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, no, absolutely. So. Let's talk about bravery in Yeah. Workplace. Okay. Bravery usually is associated as you mentioned, like you've your ex-Marine Corps in, in war in systems. Mm-hmm. Kind of potential harm. Why do you feel it's important for workers who are trying to earn.

[00:04:27] Gerry Scullion: To be brave.

[00:04:28] Jill Schulman: Well, let's define bravery first. 'cause I, I know what you're describing is what everyone thinks. I mean, everyone thinks like bravery, that's like running into a burning building or Yes. Signing up and charging into battle. Right. And first of all, that is brave. I mean, that is, I. Those are courageous, amazing heroes that are doing that work, which is awesome.

[00:04:47] Jill Schulman: But bravery is bigger than just those examples. Bravery is defined as not being fearless, and that's the mistake people make. They're like, oh, like someone's brave. They just don't have any fear. Right? [00:05:00] Actually, the definition of bravery. Um, and this really comes from Dr. Cynthia Perri, that comes from Clemson University, one of the bravery experts in the world.

[00:05:09] Jill Schulman: You know, it's, it's taking action

[00:05:13] mm-hmm.

[00:05:13] Jill Schulman: In the presence of fear. Right. And then towards something that aligns with your values Yeah. Or aligns with your intrinsic goals. So let's go back to the work environment.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:26] Jill Schulman: Let's say someone really does want to. Maybe change roles, move up, you know, uh, step up, put their name in the hat to become a leader.

[00:05:38] Jill Schulman: Um, there's fear there. Right? Like, will I be, will I be good enough? Like is it gonna be okay? So people have fear, holds them back from maybe taking a step forward into, um, you know, getting a promotion. Um, many times people have a fear of having a difficult conversation, right? Like, oh, I don't wanna talk to the person.

[00:05:58] Jill Schulman: Like, I'm just gonna, like, things are [00:06:00] really bad and it's miserable and there's a lot of tension here, but I'm scared to have a conversation. So really, like, there's so many things in life where we let fear hold us back from doing. The very thing that is going to make things better. So there's so many different applications of, you know, what I call the skill of bravery.

[00:06:18] Jill Schulman: Okay. Um, that applies in, in the work environment. Like even taking risks, like, you know, innovation and taking risks. I mean, this is a critical business skill, you know, that companies need people to be able to do is like, come up with new ideas and try them out, right? But why do people not, because there's that fear and, and, and fear.

[00:06:37] Jill Schulman: Fear is a good thing for us humans. I mean, we are wired. The reason why we survived is 'cause we have this fear instinct, right? But there are no saber tooth tigers chasing us down, right? So sometimes there's, there's fear and it's a signal that we should run away like a saber tooth tiger. But there are so many things in modern life that happen and we have this fear response and it causes us to run [00:07:00] away or not want to face it.

[00:07:02] Jill Schulman: And it's, it's just in our mind, it's not a real, you know, fear. So.

[00:07:07] Gerry Scullion: So, so when you look at bravery in the context of the workplace, right, what are the factors from an organizational perspective that allow people to become brave? Because in my experience, not every organization has the, the cultural setup to allow people to step up to be brave.

[00:07:31] Gerry Scullion: Like, and we're, we're thinking Western here, but also like in other territories and other cultures. Mm-hmm. So if you look at, you know, cultures like in, in the Middle East, how, how, how do you enable people to be brave? And if everyone becomes brave, then what happens?

[00:07:47] Jill Schulman: Well, that would be, I think, a good, I think that would be a good situation as long as it's the right type of bravery.

[00:07:54] Jill Schulman: Right. Which is people. Identifying what's a goal that's important to me, or a goal that's [00:08:00] important for my team and my organization to be able to achieve? And then I'm gonna be brave enough to go after it and achieve it. Or I have something personally important to me that aligns with my values and there's action I need to take to be consistent with my values and if I take action.

[00:08:14] Jill Schulman: So if everyone is brave, our world is gonna be a better place. Um, but let's talk about like the workplace, because what you're, what you're really tapping into is culture and like specifically. Psychological safety. Amy Edmondson from Harvard University is a leading researcher, um, and writer and speaker on psychological safety.

[00:08:31] Jill Schulman: So, um, organizations, leaders have an obligation to try to create a psychologically safe environment. And the psychologic psych psychological safety is creating environment where people feel comfortable asking questions, bringing up concerns, sharing their ideas, or even admitting mistakes without the fear of, um, embarrassment or humiliation or punishment.

[00:08:51] Jill Schulman: Right? So an organization. Specifically, each leader has an obligation to create psychological safety and there's things that they can [00:09:00] do to do that, and they should be doing that. So that is, you know, first and foremost. But on the other side, um, is individuals need to. They need to step up and have some courage.

[00:09:12] Jill Schulman: You know, sometimes a, a leader can try to create a psych psychologically safe environment, but someone just still, they, they let fear hold them back and they just don't want to. So there's two sides of the same coin here in organizations. We need to create an environment. So that people can feel safe and they can be brave and be courageous.

[00:09:31] Jill Schulman: So we need the culture piece, but we need to train individuals to be self leaders. You know, this is really self-leadership. Like don't just sit in the corner and be scared, like, I need you to take a step forward, right? I need you to raise your hand and share your idea. Or your concern, that's really important, and I know there's some fear there, but you holding it back is not good for you.

[00:09:54] Jill Schulman: It's not good for the organization, it's not good for our business, and it's not good for our customers. So if you just [00:10:00] focus on climate or culture in the organization without training people how to build more bravery, we're missing out. So it's two sides.

[00:10:09] Gerry Scullion: Okay. So when you look at it from the two. Because I know you've got a book, but we'll come to that in a second.

[00:10:17] Gerry Scullion: But what are the things that you look at from an employee's perspective mm-hmm. That they need to do? Like what, what? Talk about the science of bravery. So like what are the ingredients Yeah. To, um, to get to that point.

[00:10:31] Jill Schulman: Yeah. Great question. So from an individual perspective. Yeah. And this is, this is all in my book that's coming out in July.

[00:10:39] Jill Schulman: Um, and it's actually written as a parable. Um, it's written as a parable. And it's, it's funny 'cause you just said that the character is in an environment where it's not that great, but he has to learn skills of being brave. So there's three, there's three dimensions, there's three, and these are all evidence-based.

[00:10:55] Jill Schulman: So that's the one thing about me is you're not gonna just get Jill as the United States Marine saying do [00:11:00] this to be brave. Like no one cares, like what my experience is. What hopefully people care about is what does the evidence tell us? So there are three things based on the science of bravery, the science based on, you know, psychology, um, neurology, you know, social, uh, sociology.

[00:11:16] Jill Schulman: Um, these things that we know work. So the three dimensions are, um, first. We've gotta teach the individual how to develop a brave mindset. So it goes just into mindset. And I'm sure your audience has heard a lot of, there's a lot of people that talk about mindset, but it starts with mindset. So what I teach in, in my courses, and it's also, you know, in the book is, um, growth mindset based on Carol Dweck's work from Stanford, you know, believing.

[00:11:41] Jill Schulman: That, um, you can develop skills that it's possible for, for you to achieve a goal versus a fixed mindset. Fixed mindset is, oh, I just, I couldn't do that. That's impossible. That would be an example of a fixed mindset. People don't even have, they, they don't even think it's possible [00:12:00] for them to be able to develop a skill or to be able to achieve a goal.

[00:12:02] Jill Schulman: Sure. If you don't believe that, you can, you'll be right. Right. Or if you believe that you can, you're probably right. So we first work on mindset. So we, we, we lean on Carol Dweck's research in teaching the power of a growth mindset and how to do that. But in addition, we talk about, um, we, we help people understand that challenges and stress are enhancing versus debilitating.

[00:12:26] Jill Schulman: You know, there's, you know, I mean, I could spend an hour on a podcast on each of these and I don't wanna do that. Um, but a lot of people think like the reason why they wanna stay in the safe zone is because they don't want any adversity and they don't want any stress because isn't stress bad. No, it's not.

[00:12:40] Jill Schulman: There's a lot of research, you know, around how do you change people's mindset and saying, if I try to do something that has some risk or something that's challenging, that stress along the way is going to make me stronger. So we talk about the evidence-based, you know, um, tools and things that we can do to build that mindset.

[00:12:57] Jill Schulman: And then in addition, we teach them on, [00:13:00] on the mindset piece is how to generate the positive emotions that will fuel their. Their success toward achieving their goals. Many people think that they're victims of their emotions. That's bull like, I don't wanna say on your head

[00:13:17] Gerry Scullion: No, that's, it's fine. It's

[00:13:19] Jill Schulman: bullshit.

[00:13:19] Jill Schulman: It's bullshit. Like, don't be a victim. Like I teach people, I, I I challenge people and hold 'em accountable. Like I understand that you're experiencing emotions, right? Yeah. They, we have to be curious about our emotions. They're there for a reason, but we have the choice to be aware of our emotions, but we can change our emotional state.

[00:13:37] Jill Schulman: In order to best serve ourselves, our goals, our companies. Um, so, so I teach them how to do that. It's all of Barbara f Fredrickson's work. Um, she wrote a book called Positivity. And then last thing is, I mean, this is where we get really deep, um, which is, you know, talking about the voice in our heads, the chatter.

[00:13:54] Jill Schulman: What are the things that we're telling ourself? It matters. If you have a voice inside of your head, Jerry, and you're saying like, I suck. I'm never [00:14:00] gonna be able to do this. This is, this is gonna, this is gonna crash and burn. That is not very helpful to you, so you need to stop doing that. Right. Um, now there are, there are things that we teach in psychology to be able to change the dialogue in our head.

[00:14:14] Jill Schulman: So all of that is around, we have to master your mindset and that's a big part of self leadership. And we don't do that. We don't do that in organizations a lot. I mean, I know I was in corporate America. I have been, I, I work in I clients all the time in corporate America. How many. How many companies spend time teaching people how to get their mindset right to achieve more and be more successful?

[00:14:39] Jill Schulman: It's, it, it doesn't happen a lot. We need to do it more because that is the root cause that people don't take the action, right? So, um, I spend a lot of time on mindset and my audiences and clients, they just have breakthroughs when we just go there. But that's just one dimension. And then we have brave action.

[00:14:53] Jill Schulman: So we teach people how to align. Their actions with their intentions to achieve high quality [00:15:00] goals. So we do things like goal setting, implementation intentions, um, you know, uh, how to have extreme. Uh, what I call, um, ruthless planning, prioritization and focus a lot of things on productivity habits. Um, and these are just things that people have to build, you know, build these practices.

[00:15:20] Jill Schulman: Um, and with time they can do that. And the, and the third dimension is, is brave relationships. Um, surrounding yourself with the people that can help you. Accomplish those challenging goals to be brave. So if people have the mindset, they take the action and they're surrounded by people that are gonna support them on the journey to accomplish hard things, then they are unstoppable.

[00:15:41] Jill Schulman: And it's those three things that really work. In tandem, the three things together that really accelerate, you know, results.

[00:15:50] Gerry Scullion: So going back to the piece of those, those three things that you were talking about mm-hmm. Of, uh, you know, what they need to, the mindset being, being critical. Okay. [00:16:00] So if you look the, look at that from the employee perspective, what can leaders take away from this where they have to maybe change the mind shift of, uh, thousands of people working in large organizations where.

[00:16:15] Gerry Scullion: Historically, they might have been led by fear, might have been led by, um, a kind of a dictator kind of, uh, hierarchy. And, um, they don't wanna step outta line. And suddenly now they're being told by Jill Schulman's book that's being sold and brought into the office that they need to step up. Is it, there's like a, a dissonance there between the two worlds where, you know, one thing their training is the culture says another.

[00:16:42] Gerry Scullion: What do you say to leaders out there who want to instill and create safer workplaces?

[00:16:47] Jill Schulman: Um, so when it comes to leadership development to create this, um, I wanna, I wanna start off by saying that for many leaders out there

[00:16:58] mm-hmm

[00:16:59] Jill Schulman: [00:17:00] they're not leading the right way and it's not their fault. Leaders many times are promoted to a leadership position because they are the best person at the technical skill.

[00:17:10] Jill Schulman: So then they get promoted to a leadership position, but no one teaches them how to do that job. Leading people is a completely different job. Right. And many times, because they are experts in doing the technical thing and there's a lot of pressure on them, yeah. They just naturally drive their people crazy by micromanaging and putting pressure on 'em.

[00:17:27] Jill Schulman: So, um, we as a. Organizations have to teach leaders how to do their job. And that is no longer doing the technical thing. It's, it's motivating, inspiring people to perform at their best. And that is where the science of bravery comes in. So, you know, I'm really focusing now on how do I teach individuals how to be braver?

[00:17:48] Jill Schulman: Like, take control of your success in your career, even if you have a bad boss, right? Like, are you gonna let that one bad boss if they are, don't have the training, dictate your career success. So I, I teach those, um. [00:18:00] Individual contributors, like those self bravery. But then if you go up to the leadership level, then we do the same thing.

[00:18:06] Jill Schulman: We, we teach leaders how do you create self-belief and self-confidence in your employees to accomplish their challenging goals. So it's like all the three things I talked about in terms of, you know, how do you, how do you. Help people from a psychological point of view. So they're optimistic and motivated to achieve the goals, right?

[00:18:24] Jill Schulman: And and leaders absolutely have an ability to do that. Number two, leaders have to enable their employees to be able to take brave action. So are we removing obstacles? Are we asking our employees like, what do you need from me so that you can accomplish the challenging goals that are gonna make a difference to our customers?

[00:18:43] Jill Schulman: Right? So we should be asking those questions, not like, what are you doing wrong? And we should be asking, you know, what? What do you need from me? To enable you to be able to accomplish your challenging goal. Right. So, you know, it's, I, I'm a big fan of servant leadership. I use that term a lot when I [00:19:00] speak to audiences, like, instead of thinking like, I'm the boss, so you're here to serve me.

[00:19:04] Jill Schulman: If that is your mindset as a leader, just, you know, please just put your hand up and smack yourself in the head because that you're doing it wrong. Like, that is the wrong, wrong mindset. As a leader, yeah, we should have a mindset that. We are here to best serve our people so that they can, they can learn, grow, succeed, and win.

[00:19:21] Jill Schulman: And there's many evidence-based, you know, leadership, you know, behaviors that can do that. Um, and then, and just the last thing to, I guess round out my, my model, what a leader can do is, you know, leaders need to be available to their people. So when they're going through challenges to accomplish, you know, their goals for the, for the company, for the customer, you gotta be there to support them because you know what success looks like.

[00:19:47] Jill Schulman: A lot of people think that success is, you know, you set a goal and then you do your planning and you're just skipping along rainbows and butterflies and everything is just gonna happen perfectly well, if there are really challenging goal. There's gonna be challenges along the way. So [00:20:00] when your people are going through the ups and downs, when they get to the downs, you've gotta be available.

[00:20:04] Jill Schulman: That that's your job. And, and don't think that you have to have all the answers you need to teach your people to have a, a tribe of people. I call it the brave tribe. Like you should be one of them as a leader, but who are other people that your employees can reach out to? So they've got multiple people that can support their success, you know, and it's teaching people, um, to be brave enough to admit they don't have the answer.

[00:20:28] Jill Schulman: Or admit that they need help. So, you know, we spend time with the teams and also the leaders to say like, you wanna be, you wanna be brave, you wanna be a badass. I want you to tell me what's going well, but I want you to tell me where you're struggling. If we can, if we can create vulnerability or you know, people being transparent, right?

[00:20:47] Jill Schulman: That just builds trust within the team. And then, I mean, imagine how much faster we're gonna be able to operate, how much more successful our teams are gonna be if people actually admit, go to work and say. You know what? I'm not really sure about this. Can anyone help me out? Right? Yeah. So, [00:21:00] so we talk a lot about, you know, creating that environment

[00:21:02] Gerry Scullion: and teams.

[00:21:03] Gerry Scullion: I, I coach, um, designers and I coach, uh, innovators in senior leadership positions. And I know of several instances where toxicity is at play in many people's lives. And one of the coaches big thing was just putting the hand up to say that this isn't okay. Mm. Whole senior execs about the only to find themselves, um, unsupport ex.

[00:21:31] Gerry Scullion: Ultimately leading to them having to leave the organization as a result. Mm-hmm. When you hear these situations, I'm really cautious to, to promote, you know, too, uh, too much of a reckless approach of saying that we all need to be brave, we need to step up. Mm-hmm. In some instances, those organizations. Just you're, you're so advanced.

[00:21:54] Gerry Scullion: What do you say to people in those situations that they do find themselves in Systems. Yeah. Toxicity. [00:22:00] Yeah. And we're, we're promoting something that could be quite radical for them, right.

[00:22:04] Jill Schulman: I don't want, I don't want people to get fired if, if they're supporting their family. So,

[00:22:08] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[00:22:08] Jill Schulman: Great question. I love the challenge here.

[00:22:10] Jill Schulman: Um, first of all, there's a way to do it. I don't want you to walk into your boss and say,

[00:22:14] Gerry Scullion: with a gun falling,

[00:22:15] Jill Schulman: don't.

[00:22:21] Jill Schulman: You don't wanna walk like into your boss's office and say like, you're, you're doing it wrong. This is the stupidest idea ever. Like that is probably not gonna go well. So we teach people how to bring up their concerns in a respectful, but also, um, you know, advocating for their point of view. So, um. So, so we train them how to do that and you always have to lead with, um, your pure purpose.

[00:22:47] Jill Schulman: So in the model that I teach, um, on delivering feedback, it's called poise. So I'll give this little gift to everyone. Anytime you need to, um, share something with a boss or a cross-functional counterpart or a spouse, or even an employee, just [00:23:00] deliver whatever you need to say with poise, right? Um, and this, this will give you more confidence.

[00:23:04] Jill Schulman: So you've gotta open up the P in poise. Um, there's actually two Ps is. Open up with your pure purpose. Like what is the purpose? Why are you sharing your opinion on this? Um, and then ask permission. So I might say to you, Jerry, like, you know, I really care so deeply about the success of this project. I know it's so important to our company and for our team.

[00:23:26] Jill Schulman: Um, and because I care so much about contributing to the success, there's something I noticed that I think might get in the way of the project being a success. Do you mind? Can I share my observation?

[00:23:40] Gerry Scullion: Okay. That's permission.

[00:23:41] Jill Schulman: So that, that, that's, so I did my purpose, my pure purpose. Like I care, I'm trying to be helpful and then permission, then the leader will say, well, yeah, like, what is it?

[00:23:49] Jill Schulman: You know? And then we go into the, oh, is the observe behavior? What is, try to do it objectively, right? Just like, here's something I notice. So it's gotta come, come across as very neutral. [00:24:00] Like what is the behavior, what is, what did I observe that is, is troublesome? So you, you state that as just very factual.

[00:24:08] Jill Schulman: Um, without emotion, just like you state the fact and then you describe what is the potential impact. So poise, POI is what do you see as a downstream impact of the thing that you noticed, right? So you're just saying like, Hey, I care so much about our success. There's something I noticed it may have a negative impact down the road, and then the s is seek to understand.

[00:24:26] Jill Schulman: But that's just my point of view and I, and I brought it to you 'cause I care. Um, but what is your point of view on this? And then you open it up a dialogue and see what they have to say about it. And then hopefully you can enact a plan. The Ian poise is like, you know, you know, hopefully we can come to an agreement and enact a plan.

[00:24:40] Jill Schulman: So if you deliver it that way, then your boss isn't going to wanna fire you. They're gonna be like, wow, like, maybe they don't agree with you, but at least you're gonna feel confident that I saw a problem and I was brave enough to speak up. And if my boss, you know, dismisses it. Then I did my part, or, [00:25:00] um, or maybe if you deliver it the right way.

[00:25:02] Jill Schulman: So in terms of bravery too, like it's bravery is not bravado. I just don't want people to like just go in there and say, I think you're an idiot. I'm just gonna be brave. Like, no, that's, that's just being an asshole. I. Don't do that. Yeah. Um, you know, go in there and do it the right way. And so this is what I do, is I try to teach people ways to make their voice heard.

[00:25:19] Jill Schulman: Yeah. And for the person you're talking about, that that coach that there was, there was horrible toxicity. They, they, they, they found their voice, they spoke up, and it ended up causing them to leave. Now, I know in the short term, that's devastating for this person, but I would be curious. To ask you maybe in a year from now where they end up.

[00:25:37] Jill Schulman: Sometimes those situations of leaving a toxic environment might lead to a job that they are gonna be so much happier in. If you are in a job and it's toxic and you're miserable and you wake up every Monday morning and with dread, and you take that negative energy, you know, um, that you have at work, probably home with you.

[00:25:58] Jill Schulman: You know, I would recommend that you do [00:26:00] something about it. Like it life is too short to hate, you know, half of your waking hours or two thirds of your waking hours because you're in a job that is to so, so toxic. So, you know, um, so, you know, I don't know for that person that, that left. I don't know if you, I.

[00:26:16] Jill Schulman: In a couple years, they end up doing something different where they're happier. You might ask them like, are you glad that that happened? And I would be pretty willing to wage it, that the answer would be yes.

[00:26:25] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's interesting. Like, you know, as you can I, I'll take you up on that offer, um, of reaching out in an, in another year, I'll find out.

[00:26:34] Gerry Scullion: So in terms of like where, where you're at with this? Okay. So bravery, we were discussing beforehand, you are in the the military or in the Marine Corps. Uh, there seems to be a huge appetite, especially coming out of the states at the moment around bravery and Navy Seals. Why do you think there is this kind of.

[00:26:58] Gerry Scullion: Sort of attention at the moment [00:27:00] being put on this. And why does it make, or why is the Navy Seals and the Marine Corps, um, producing people who are going out into the corporate world kind of banging their chests about bravery and.

[00:27:14] Jill Schulman: Well, first of all, I would say for all my Navy Seal friends out there, like, I mean nothing is freaking cooler than a Navy Seal 'cause they are our most elite fighting for.

[00:27:23] Jill Schulman: So it's entertaining. You just wanna hear the stories. Right. Um, so, you know, I think, you know, I think you get. The corporate audience is to really listen when you get someone that has that Navy Seal background. 'cause you know, we're a little bit enamored by it. Um, now as a United States Marine, we're cool, but we're not nearly the level of Navy Seals, right?

[00:27:42] Jill Schulman: So

[00:27:44] Gerry Scullion: we don't, we don't have a fighting background. We don't, we don't. What's the difference between these two?

[00:27:51] Jill Schulman: Well, in, in the United States. We have four major branches of our service. We've got, you know, the Air Force, the Army, [00:28:00] the Marine Corps, and the Navy. Um, the Marine Corps and the Navy are sister services, but our Marine Corps is our smallest, um, I guess armed service.

[00:28:10] Jill Schulman: And they're known as the few, the proud. So out of all four of those services now we have a Space Force too, but I think it's pretty small. Um, the Marine Corps has a reputation of being. The few, the proud being the toughest as an entire branch. But when you look at the Navy seals, they have within the Navy, they are, you know, we have special forces in all four, but the Navy seals are kind of known as, as really the badasses.

[00:28:33] Jill Schulman: I mean, they have to go through this buds training. So, um, so one of our most elite fighting forces, so of course, like if they're the most. Most effective in accomplishing challenging goals. Like it makes sense to, to listen to them, but I think the reason why there's an appetite for it, which your question is like why do people wanna hear?

[00:28:50] Jill Schulman: Yeah. Um, I will cite some evidence here. So Ryan Neek is one of the researchers and he currently still works at and leads, um, the via. Institute. [00:29:00] So the VIA Institute is an organization that's free for everyone to go and learn about your strengths. So the Via Strengths is something where, um, people can discover their strengths and try to build their strengths.

[00:29:10] Jill Schulman: Um, so Ryan Emek just recently published a, an article and he asked people out of all the different character strengths out there, which one do you want to develop or make stronger? And bravery was one of the top two. That people say, I wanna be braver. So people recognize and say, I, you know, I, I recognize that I, I let fear hold me back and there's things that I want, but I don't go after what I want because I'm scared and I want to be braver.

[00:29:39] Jill Schulman: I just don't know how. So, um, I think that's why there's a lot of interest in it. And, and a lot of the skills that come out of bravery in general, like people setting more challenging goals, people, you know, um. Having transparent conversations, people believing that they can accomplish more. I [00:30:00] mean, if, if we get an organization to develop those three skills, it really accelerates business results.

[00:30:06] Jill Schulman: So I think the leaders of the organization want it 'cause they see the value it brings to, you know, driving the bottom line. Um, but then individuals, they actually want this. And so when they go through the program with me and they're learning it in the corporate setting, usually the stories I get coming back is not about all the corporate success, it's about.

[00:30:24] Jill Schulman: They finally, you know, decided that they were gonna, you know, you know, run a marathon that they've always run it to, or they shared the lessons with their, their, their 10-year-old son who now is, you know, so it's, it's the, it's the spillover to the personal life that are the stories that I hear. So,

[00:30:44] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[00:30:44] Gerry Scullion: I'm gonna, I'm ask one, one question. Maybe you can tell me something that you're afraid of at the moment.

[00:30:55] Jill Schulman: Oh, God. Just put me on the spot there. Didn't, he didn't gimme a warning with that question at all, [00:31:00] you know? Um,

[00:31:01] Gerry Scullion: what are you afraid of at the moment for right

[00:31:04] Jill Schulman: now? You know, um, I was telling you a little bit about this before the podcast.

[00:31:07] Jill Schulman: I'm, I'm taking a leap and moving in a new direction. I have a very successful leadership development company. We don't need to do any marketing. We get booked a year in advance. Like I make good money. Like I'm in a very comfortable place and there's no reason for me to do anything different. Right. And this is kinda the definition of great bravery.

[00:31:29] Jill Schulman: It's like stepping out of the comfort zone, right? So I'm in a comfortable zone. I am branching out. I went back to school, I studied it. I'm writing a book. I've never written a book before. Like I'm fearful, like what if my book is a flop? Right. I mean, writing a book and putting it out there, I mean, that, that takes some bravery.

[00:31:47] Jill Schulman: Um, I'm now getting on very large stages to share my message. You know, there is people who get up on stages and get paid a lot of money. Like they are, they're entertainers. They're, I mean, they're so [00:32:00] good. So, so what I'm scared of right now is, you know, I'm taking a leap and moving in this new direction.

[00:32:05] Jill Schulman: I'm, and remember I said the definition of bravery is. It is taking action in the presence of fear towards something that aligns with your values or our intrinsics and goals. But I, I really believe down in my tippy toes that developing these skills, um, are gonna help people. Increase their happiness and wellbeing and make them more successful.

[00:32:30] Jill Schulman: I know it, I know it. I'm confident. 'cause the science supports it. So I'm so passionate about sharing the message. Um, so even though it's as scary as hell, because like, you know, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I haven't spoken on stages with more than a couple thousand people. I wanna get on bigger state. I wanna, I'm writing a book and it's scary.

[00:32:48] Jill Schulman: So, but I just gotta be confident, move in that direction and as long as I believe that I can. My framework, my dungeon. I believe I can, I align my actions and I use the science of brave [00:33:00] actions and I surround myself with people yeah, that have gone down, gone down the same road and can give me advice and support me on the ups and downs.

[00:33:08] Jill Schulman: I think I'm I'll be okay, and even if it's not a pretty road, I'm gonna be so much prouder of myself than if I would've decided to, to keep it, to stay safe and stay in my comfort zone.

[00:33:21] Gerry Scullion: Well here, here's hope and everything works out for you, Jill. Um, I hope you find the bravery m great success, your book.

[00:33:36] Gerry Scullion: Can people go to a website to pre-order if they're interested or what's the situation?

[00:33:41] Jill Schulman: So if people wanna find me, they can simply go to my website, um, jill schulman.com. Please make sure you spell it correctly. We were joking about that before the show. There's another Jill Schulman and she spells it differently.

[00:33:50] Jill Schulman: So J-I-L-L-S-C-H-U-L-M-A-N. So go to my website. There's a newsletter. I'll be telling you all about the book. But the other thing I wanna kind of end on, and I just saw some research [00:34:00] on this, so remember I'm always the research geek is. What do you prime yourself to do? What are what, what are all the messages that you allow in?

[00:34:09] Jill Schulman: Because it, it impacts you even, you know, um, you know, I think it's. William James, the original person who started Philosophy says, you are what you attend to. So, you know, when it comes to like social media, what I wanna challenge everyone to do is start following people that are gonna give you messages that are gonna support your personal development or your professional development.

[00:34:30] Jill Schulman: Right? You know, follow Jerry, right? He's got great messages, you know, so follow him outta the platforms. If you. If you like my messages on bravery to give you a little boost of confidence, increase your courage. So like I'm, I'm not an anti-social media person, but what I wanna tell people to do is make sure that your feed is serving you so that when you do pick up the phone to scroll, you're getting all kinds of messages that help you with your mindset because mindset matters, right?

[00:34:54] Jill Schulman: So yeah, just, they can find me on my website, but they can follow me on any of the platforms like LinkedIn or, or Instagram [00:35:00] and any of those. Um, and I can help be that hopefully positive. You know, message to help you, um, you know, go after your goals and have the bravery.

[00:35:08] Gerry Scullion: Do

[00:35:08] Jill Schulman: it.

[00:35:09] Gerry Scullion: Well, Jill, people don't have to worry about typing in your name 'cause I'm gonna put a link to both of those in the description in, if you're watching on YouTube, it's down below.

[00:35:16] Gerry Scullion: If you're on Spotify, it's in the description below as well. Um, I wish you the very best of look. Honestly. It's been, it's been fantastic to speak with you today. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:35:26] Jill Schulman: All right. Well, thanks for having me, and I'm gonna follow up with you and I'm gonna ask you about that person and we'll see what the answer is.

[00:35:32] Gerry Scullion: Okay? Please do.

[00:35:33] Jill Schulman: All right. Take care. Thank you.