Empathy, Neurodivergence, and Holistic Support: A Conversation with Occupational Therapist Suzanne Hanway

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome to another episode of This is HCD. My name is Jerry Scion and I'm your host, and I'm based in the wonderful, very windy today, city of Dublin City Ireland. And I offer training to organizations internationally in service design, user experience, design and design research, and also work one-on-one with changemakers from all over the world, with my 12 week coaching program that I offer through this podcast.

[00:00:39] Gerry Scullion: So if you're listening to this episode, unlike this is HCD, then I reckon my program might be something that you're interested in. I've worked with designers from all different levels, from C level to mid level, um, helping them grow both as a practitioner and as a person. So for more information, see the website and schedule a free chemistry call [00:01:00] with me.

[00:01:00] Gerry Scullion: And if anything, it'll be just so cool to connect and get to speak with you. Check the link in the show notes or the description if you're watching this on our YouTube channel. Now, in this episode, I chat with someone who's really, really special. I chat with Suzanne Hanway, an occupational therapist in Dublin, in health in Dublin, for anyone who's in Ireland, who works with children who are specifically who identify as Neurodiverse.

[00:01:27] Gerry Scullion: Now, we met through one of my own children who gets support from her. To help my child regulate better and sitting in on part of these sessions, it always blows my mind. Why exactly? Well, each session is led by the child, specifically, it's facilitation mastery, and I really love observing and understanding, understanding the science behind the why.

[00:01:48] Gerry Scullion: So in one of the many, many conversations that I had with Suzanne over the years, I asked her about the service requirements for children in the present world. So children who are in school at the moment. What [00:02:00] does this look like? What's available to those children and the parents currently out there in the world at the moment, and what can we learn from this?

[00:02:08] Gerry Scullion: Also, what does the future hold? When the current generation starts to enter the workforce, what are the things we need to think about? We chat openly about the generations of people who are now in the workforce, and what we can do is change makers to better support them. Suzanne is an absolutely incredible practitioner.

[00:02:26] Gerry Scullion: I mean that from the bottom of my heart. And a wonderful person to boot, and I'm so excited to share this conversation with you. Let's jump straight in. Look, Suzanne Hanway, I'm delighted to have you on the podcast. Um, I've been asking you to come on this podcast. I was saying to my wife today, nearly a year.

[00:02:43] Gerry Scullion: I was like, please, Suzanne, come on please. You. I'm very busy. I'm very busy. Is a good sign. Yeah. Um, but maybe we'll start off. Um. Maybe tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do.

[00:02:56] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah, so I'm, I'm Suzanne and I am, I was [00:03:00] very lucky to be in the profession that I'm in.

[00:03:02] Suzanne Hanway: I'm, uh, an occupational therapist and have been. So I said, I was thinking about that. I was like, oh my God, 28 years.

[00:03:09] Gerry Scullion: 98 years.

[00:03:09] Suzanne Hanway: 28 years. So I obviously don't look that old. No, you only look here at

[00:03:13] Gerry Scullion: 25.

[00:03:14] Suzanne Hanway: And I kind of started off, and I didn't go into OT straight away. I went into science in UCD. Okay. And I started off with, loved the sciences, loved it, kind of, you know, the biology side of things, and went into UCD and I was like, oh my God.

[00:03:28] Suzanne Hanway: It's like Catholic market. There's 500 people in the lecture hall.

[00:03:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:03:31] Suzanne Hanway: I'm not really understanding this. I don't understand that. And went this, I'm not getting that connect, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that connect has been a hallmark of my, my career and where I've gone. So anyhow, I switched. Um, and applied for OT in Trinity.

[00:03:47] Suzanne Hanway: Well, first of all, I kind of went and visited a couple of places. Yeah. Um, spoke with an uncle of mine who has a very significant physical disability, and his first OT was Ann Beckett, who is a niece [00:04:00] of Samuel Beckett. Oh, really? Well, and she was one of the first OTs in, uh, Ireland, and she lost one of her legs in an accident.

[00:04:06] Suzanne Hanway: And she was my uncle, my uncle's ot. He's very, very kind of a affected by his disability in some ways, but what he's achieved is absolutely amazing. And he always spoke so highly and he said, oh, I think you might like that. Go and visit a couple of OT departments. And I hadn't heard of OT before then.

[00:04:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:04:23] Suzanne Hanway: looked into the course and went, did that.

[00:04:26] Suzanne Hanway: And it was a heavy course, you know, compared to anyone who was doing their 10 hours a week of lectures. It was 35, 40 hour a week lectures placement, but loved it. The minute I did it, I was like, okay. And it was tough, academically tough. Um, and I think something which has happened now that it was the case, it's, it's a match of the person.

[00:04:48] Suzanne Hanway: You're seeing. People maybe go into ot, not always, um, it's quite high points and they might academically being really, really gifted. But I think the personality of the person is, is hugely important to our [00:05:00] profession.

[00:05:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:05:02] Suzanne Hanway: That,

[00:05:02] Gerry Scullion: let's just track it there a little bit on, on the OT point, because some people listening would be like, what is ot?

[00:05:09] Gerry Scullion: How, how would you describe what occupational therapy is? 'cause I remember hearing about it when I was studying 20 years ago and I was like, occupational therapy, is that something that happens in the workplace where you're, how you're sitting or like some sort of, you know, rehabilitation.

[00:05:24] Suzanne Hanway: A lot of people don't understand it.

[00:05:27] Suzanne Hanway: I think they, they do think of the word occupation and it's all to do with getting a job. Where the, I suppose the, the principle of ot, it looks at occupational performance areas. So it looks at a day, it looks at life and what you do within that day. It's your work. If you're obviously in a job, it's your, your education.

[00:05:45] Suzanne Hanway: If you're a child, it's your play, it's your leisure, it's your activities of daily living, so they're your occupational performance areas. And then an OT looks at how an illness, how a disability, how maybe a, a neurodivergence affects [00:06:00] your performance in that area and looks at ways to either adapt, compensate, or develop your skills.

[00:06:07] Suzanne Hanway: And again, it very much depends what clinical area you work in. You know, I obviously work in the area, you kind of younger children. Judgment care. It'll be very different my workday compared to if I was in, you know, Beaumont or, or a hospital. You know, what's more a rehab area.

[00:06:21] Gerry Scullion: Now a lot of the listeners to this podcast in particular are designers, are change makers, so they're probably be classified as creatives.

[00:06:30] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Uh, they're all throwing their eyes up to heaven, and I can see them now. But, um, a lot of those people and a lot of my peers at the moment, it seems to be, um, over the last five, 10 years, a lot of people have been assessed for things. A lot of my peers are now discovering that they maybe have a DHD or just generally neurodivergent.

[00:06:51] Gerry Scullion: I'd love to get your take. On a description of what Neurodivergence is, and then we'll come up with the second question is, what are the [00:07:00] kind of challenges that you see, um, that neurodivergence uh, you know, people with Neurodivergence have in their daily lives?

[00:07:09] Suzanne Hanway: I think, I think fir first and foremost, there's, there's a shift with the, the understanding of neurodivergence.

[00:07:14] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:15] Suzanne Hanway: Um, and

[00:07:16] Gerry Scullion: acceptance.

[00:07:16] Suzanne Hanway: And acceptance. It's not a, you need to be fixed. It's like, this is who I am and there is a big shift. There's even a shift in clinical practice about, in a couple years time where we, I was going to have all these different diagnostic categories anymore. Are we just going to have the term neurodivergent?

[00:07:32] Suzanne Hanway: Are we going to have. DC. D, which is obviously, some people might know it as Dyspraxia, developmental Coordination Disorder, A SD, autistic Spectrum Disorder, A DHD. All of those kind of come under neurodivergent. I think we're seeing it. It's always been there, but it, it's never been connected to the same way that it has now.

[00:07:55] Suzanne Hanway: I think we'll all look back in our past and we go, oh, maybe I'm a bit neurodivergent. I definitely am. [00:08:00] Mm-hmm. We look at people in our class and they're maybe just labeled, ah, they were labeled different, you know, yeah. They maybe had mental health issues, but there definitely is a shift to to, to label things more.

[00:08:11] Suzanne Hanway: Um, I think in a couple of years time it won't be that because there is more, again, more of a shift as well in accepting the person. And I very much do that within, within practice. It's not someone's coming to me to be fixed. Yeah, about giving them insights into it. Well, that's why that's hard for you to get really overloaded by sensory information, you know, and here's some strategies that might help.

[00:08:34] Suzanne Hanway: So with learning strategies to, to manage that neurodivergence and to navigate. Yeah. And it can make. Navigating things a little bit more challenge when you don't understand it, but I, I always think it's when you understand it more and you can navigate it and you can figure out, some people need to do assessment to figure that out.

[00:08:53] Suzanne Hanway: Other people just go, do you know what I know I maybe have as in an adult? I know I maybe have an neuro emerge, but I figured, I [00:09:00] figured out how to, to navigate that so I don't need, yeah. But obviously some people do, do, do go that route.

[00:09:07] Gerry Scullion: You mentioned there that a lot of your work is with young children.

[00:09:10] Gerry Scullion: Um, what are the kinda challenges they face? Because even though the industry within OT has evolved and has accepted the fact that this isn't about being fixed.

[00:09:21] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah.

[00:09:21] Gerry Scullion: Society is somewhat behind. So what are the challenges?

[00:09:25] Suzanne Hanway: I think the challenges are access to services. I even in private practice is quite hard to access services, HSE services.

[00:09:33] Suzanne Hanway: Waiting lists are, are, you know, crazy bonkers, absolutely bonkers. So the, the, the, the clinical services and the hsc and there's some fantastic professions within those areas, but waiting lists really are, are a challenge. I think schools can be, be a challenge the more people that can tune into the person's individuality.

[00:09:56] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. Um, and I absolutely appreciate teachers of a class with 30 odd [00:10:00] kids and they can't always. Make, but if they hold that neurodivergence in their head relating to all the kids, Hmm. That can be really good. So I know what, for me, I get better outcome in the work I do when I get that really good connection with the parent.

[00:10:14] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. And I get a really good connection with the school and the school and the parent. Get that connection with the child. Sure. I really, outcomes. Intervention are stratospheric different. It's the ones where I'm seeing that, oh, we haven't got the school on board, or maybe mom and dad aren't as, as tuned into where, you know, their, their child is at.

[00:10:33] Suzanne Hanway: That really does affect outcome. Yeah. So as an ot, very much try and coach. And empower parents in schools to get that connection because it's really, really powerful. And any of the research that's coming out now said, you know, getting that connection first and foremost, really influenced outcome measures.

[00:10:52] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Now, on that point, um, the, the pressure on schools Yeah. To support, uh, an [00:11:00] additional need if you want. Yeah. From a child. If you had a class of say, 30. And they were all assessed. How many of those children would you say on average would be? Uh, neurodivergent? A

[00:11:12] Suzanne Hanway: third? I would think

[00:11:13] Gerry Scullion: a third. About a third of a class of 10?

[00:11:15] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. So

[00:11:16] Gerry Scullion: in my year, like when I was in school in the early eighties, all the way through until the mid nineties. There was definitely people, right, that were in my class that would've been neurodivergent, that would've learning disabilities, learning disabilities, and they were kind of classified as just being difficult.

[00:11:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, yeah. Or slow or any of these terms that are very kind of derogatory. Um, but we've noticed a shift that's happened in the last, definitely 20 years anyway, with my generation of parents. There seems to be an, uh, an acknowledgement that we could probably better support people. What do you think is behind that?

[00:11:54] Gerry Scullion: What, what, what has caused this kind of universal shift to kind of global [00:12:00] understanding that we are all different and we're all unique?

[00:12:06] Suzanne Hanway: I think research, I think models of practice have, um, have, have evolved. I think the training, the teachers and clinicians are getting, you know, it's, it's sowing that seed, you know, and it.

[00:12:19] Suzanne Hanway: There, the ability to reflect and go what we were doing wasn't working well.

[00:12:23] Gerry Scullion: Mm. You

[00:12:23] Suzanne Hanway: know, neurodivergence, when it wasn't being supported, when it wasn't being understand, you were understood. You were seeing the impact in the mental health service. Yeah. And there's so, you know, I look back to my own, you know, clinical placements within my training and some of my earlier work, and you saw people who had fairly significant mental health difficulties and you know, it's because they're neurodivergent one understood.

[00:12:45] Suzanne Hanway: You know, so the mental health services then were getting blocked up and they're going, oh, there's something not quite clicking, you know, we need to go back, we need to look at what we were doing from the very beginning. So I think it's a, a shift, more of a

[00:12:56] Gerry Scullion: holistic approach and more of a, a correlation you could see, well, [00:13:00] this generation we're relatively unsupported and it's having a, an effect in the health services later on in life.

[00:13:07] Suzanne Hanway: Hugely so. And like you would see, like even in the prison system, you know, there would be. Definitely kind of people who would've been maybe on the spectrum who it wasn't picked up, it wasn't picked up, and their social difficulties and were, were misinterpreted as, oh God, you're, and they ended, they were very, very socially maybe vulnerable and they ended up in situations.

[00:13:25] Suzanne Hanway: So definitely research would show that there people in the prison system who haven't been, haven't been diagnosed. Yeah. So I think there is a plus for, for diagnosis in, in, in very many cases. So being able to kind of understand, say, okay, let's look behind a behavior. And I think that's a key thing that I Sure look at in practice.

[00:13:44] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. And get parents in schools. Don't just look at the behavior. Why is it there? What is it? What is the intent of that behavior? And if we can figure out the intent, we can shift things rather than a behavioral or we're gonna stop it. We're gonna reduce it. Yeah. In some [00:14:00] cases that does work a more cognitive, cognitive approach, but when there's a behavior there that has more of an emotional component mm-hmm.

[00:14:07] Suzanne Hanway: Our, our limbic system. And you think of the flip the lid. This is very, this is very basic. So your limbic system is kind of your thumb and it's chucked away over your frontal, your frontal lobe, your executive function.

[00:14:19] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:20] Suzanne Hanway: Okay.

[00:14:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:14:20] Suzanne Hanway: So if your limbic system is on fire, we flip the lid and executive function and frontal control is gone.

[00:14:27] Suzanne Hanway: And that's the behavioral sign of things. In, in, in very many cases, certainly the cases I would work with. So we go back and we do body-based approaches. We go back and we say, let's support the limbic system. Let's get that regulation that connect and we keep the executive function and the limbic system, you know, tucked away.

[00:14:46] Suzanne Hanway: You know, it's like when the shot has an absolute meltdown language, you know, they're not gonna process it, they're not gonna hear it. So we need to let that limbic system settle down and that frontal, frontal part, you know, come back. That's it. It's accessible to regulate. You [00:15:00] know, in some of the work I do with children in care, it's encouraging body-based approaches rather than a cognitive approach.

[00:15:06] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Which, which is like one of the questions that I had for you. Like with occupational therapy, the help that you can provide to children, um, what are some of the activities that you do that maybe teachers or people who work with children can start to incorporate into their, their practice, so to speak?

[00:15:25] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. Movements like movement is absolutely. So per, um, you look at maybe a model like Sland where children get movement every 15 minutes. So how

[00:15:35] Gerry Scullion: do they do this? Like, let, let's stop on this one a second. Yeah. Because like, you look at a classroom,

[00:15:40] Suzanne Hanway: but it could be just even at the desk. It could be let's everyone stand up and, you know, shake your hands, know box

[00:15:45] Gerry Scullion: each other.

[00:15:46] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. It, it has to be, and this is where I try work with teachers and say, it doesn't have to be that you're going into the PE hall. It doesn't have to be that you leave the class. Yeah. You can have those really quick and easy, you know, shifts and movements. And movements. [00:16:00] Then allow the brain to be accessible for, for learning.

[00:16:03] Suzanne Hanway: So you think of it like filling your cup up? Yeah,

[00:16:05] Gerry Scullion: the

[00:16:05] Suzanne Hanway: cup will thin up and if the child's cup is full pouring stuff in, it just overflows. So movements sometimes can allow that cup to empty a little bit. Um, for there, there to be capacity for connection and learning. So really simple quick movement breaks.

[00:16:20] Suzanne Hanway: Even before like a handwriting activity could be everyone shakes their hand out, you know, shake them up, shake them down, stretch them out. Mm-hmm. Really, really simple things and teachers that buy into that and see it as a support for the curriculum definitely have better outcomes of engagement for all the kids, not just kids that are neurodivergent.

[00:16:39] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah,

[00:16:40] Gerry Scullion: that's, it's crazy, you know, like

[00:16:41] Suzanne Hanway: this, even I have to say, say for me, like I'm sitting with you now and I'm fo really focused on the screen. I know by the time I'm finished I need movement.

[00:16:50] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You

[00:16:50] Suzanne Hanway: know, I need some movement before I go onto something. Something else. Because I really had to focus, I've had to tune everything out.

[00:16:57] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. To,

[00:16:58] Gerry Scullion: you

[00:16:58] Suzanne Hanway: know, to engage. So I think [00:17:00] teachers can do that. Um. Bilateral movement. So movement that involves two side of your, two sides of your body. There's a huge amount of research around how that it supports executive functioning. Mm-hmm. You know, impacts on processing speed. Impacts and literacy and numeracy.

[00:17:15] Suzanne Hanway: So having movement that has that bilateral mm-hmm. So it's using the two sides of your body and crossing, crossing over with the T side. So that look

[00:17:23] Gerry Scullion: like if you, if you're to give us an example, um, I know you've got so many amazing methods Yeah. Haven't seen you in action. Um. What does that look like in terms of methods?

[00:17:34] Gerry Scullion: Because we're talking about stuff here that you can apply for children, but it's obviously, it applies to adults as well. Like I train an awful lot of adults and I do incorporate some sort of games and, uh, activities and movement. I. Probably not enough though, based on what you're telling me here. Like, you know, like if we're doing a six hour workshop and we're splitting it into segments, there's probably enough opportunity there for all of us change makers to, to weave some of this [00:18:00] thinking into our practice.

[00:18:01] Suzanne Hanway: Oh, hugely so. So like a, a quick and easy thing could be, everyone stands up when there's a thing called a cross cul, where you get your right hand to touch your left knee. You get your left hand to touch your right knee. So you're causing over that midline. So you're engaging, you do the

[00:18:14] Gerry Scullion: ho pokey and turn around.

[00:18:16] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:18:17] Suzanne Hanway: Do that.

[00:18:18] Gerry Scullion: What it's all about that kinda stuff, like

[00:18:20] Suzanne Hanway: jumping jacks. Even something simple like jumping jacks.

[00:18:23] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:18:23] Suzanne Hanway: That you're using the, and you watch in a classroom, kids doing jumping jacks and you'll be, oh. And you'll see the difficulty some kids have and some adults have with, with, with that bilateral.

[00:18:34] Suzanne Hanway: But there is great power in bilateral base. Movement. You know, and as opposed to, you know, there, there's a misconception sometimes that, you know, okay, with football, game football can, some can be someone, someone's absolute nightmare.

[00:18:47] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:18:48] Suzanne Hanway: You know, for a child who gets really overloaded by sensory information for, you know, a child that struggles in, maybe in those big noisy groups, a child who doesn't have the coordination, the, the quick postural control [00:19:00] is an absolute nightmare for them, and it sends them back to class really dysregulated.

[00:19:04] Suzanne Hanway: So it's knowing. What movements will regulate? As in kind of keeping in that nice kind of zone, or what movement can dysregulate and stand you up that you go back into class and you're going, oh, I can't focus on my math and my, my art. You know, most,

[00:19:18] Gerry Scullion: most of us in school, yeah. In the nineties.

[00:19:21] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. So, so I think it's, it's teachers, again, I'm, I'm a great believer in, you know, coaching and I'm empowering people with the knowledge and when they have the knowledge, I've done work with teachers, they'll go, oh, I feel so bad now.

[00:19:31] Suzanne Hanway: I was staffing a child swinging on their chair. Now I know that they just weren't getting enough movement. Opportunities in the, in the classroom. Yeah. I'm gonna go back and, and try and do that before a really demanding cognitive task.

[00:19:44] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. One of the pieces that I, I really came to respect was the OTs kind of, um.

[00:19:52] Gerry Scullion: Kind of collaborative nature of wanting to incorporate their learnings with the other disciplines, like teachers, the medical [00:20:00] professions. But there seems to be a lack of, um, opportunity there, like a system to feed into it. Like it's, it's very broken in those kind of channels. So the evidence that you have based on scientific research, for a parent to go back to the, uh, the school or the, the medical profession, like a doctor and stuff, they're required to be the proxy between all three or four of them.

[00:20:25] Gerry Scullion: What do you think the future looks like for government services that are more holistic and being able to document and share so you all kind of access the same repository of information?

[00:20:38] Suzanne Hanway: I think it's challenging.

[00:20:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I think

[00:20:41] Suzanne Hanway: we, we still have data

[00:20:43] Gerry Scullion: challenging as well, probably.

[00:20:44] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. I think it, we still have a long way to go.

[00:20:47] Suzanne Hanway: Um, I think it's setting the structures and the standards in place. Mm-hmm. And not just kind of keeping it two links and allowing every school to operate. And obviously they do have standards, you know, and that, you know, they're all doing amazingly, but it's to [00:21:00] kind of, oh, say, okay, you need to pull these people in.

[00:21:02] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. So having a standard so it's not left. So loose. So I think there needs to be tighter policies and standards and there, there is that shift, but things move so slowly within the, the public sector. Absolutely. And obviously the, the private sector as well. I think it's getting in it from a training point of view.

[00:21:21] Suzanne Hanway: So in teacher training, training of medics, training of all the professions that you need in that team, that everyone is on the same page and understands that profession because we don't always understand the, the framework and we need to respect. That profession and how we can connect and engage the men.

[00:21:39] Suzanne Hanway: So I think it starts from the really early, the training and having that, that framework in place. So a teacher goes into a school, they know, okay, these are, these are some of the things that I might need to, to look out, look out for, and it is happening, but it needs to be certainly up.

[00:21:55] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely. O one of the things that I've basically been working on for the [00:22:00] last nine months, as you know, the Makers Doers School, 'cause I know you've been interested in Yeah, no, I thought it was great.

[00:22:05] Gerry Scullion: Shared it out in your own social channels and I really appreciated that. Um, but the importance of other avenues for children who aren't, say. Sporty, um, who aren't, uh, kind of interested in, in doing the traditional sports like football or tennis or any of these things, they may find it very difficult due to the coordination or just interest.

[00:22:27] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. What do you think, um, or do you think. The opportunity lies with the arts and crafts and design generally. What would that give to children like if it was included much earlier? Because I know other, um, countries in the world like Finland, they introduce design at a much earlier age. What's the effect on their brain at the younger brain by, by weaving this kind of thinking into it?

[00:22:52] Suzanne Hanway: Oh, I think it has massive, massive positive impacts. You know, the, the construction part of our brain has been, is it being [00:23:00] fired up? And the ability to,

[00:23:01] Gerry Scullion: mm-hmm.

[00:23:02] Suzanne Hanway: Develop what we call our praxis skills through, through play, design, creative activities. And everyone needs to be able to to, to have strong practice.

[00:23:11] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. You know, the term dyspraxia comes from difficulty with the skill of praxis. And praxis is about ideation, getting an idea, sequencing and doing it. And when we, you know, play with Lego, when we make things, we have to get that ideation and then we have to sequence all this death. And this is when I look people, you know.

[00:23:29] Suzanne Hanway: Having free play on Lego and not just reading the instructions.

[00:23:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:23:32] Suzanne Hanway: You know, and building it. And you know, I certainly have, but some people you go, oh, include it all together, and you're like, oh my God, shit. Like, you know, so the brain gets stimulated. Like there's so many parts of the brain that gets stimulated by that, that that creative, that ideational play.

[00:23:49] Suzanne Hanway: It's really, really, really powerful and I think it's really important. And there's definitely a shift. In schools, in, in that kind of, of, of opportunities and learning as well. I'm a really, really [00:24:00] strong advocate, um, for the need for really holistic options for sports in school. It shouldn't just be the area.

[00:24:07] Suzanne Hanway: Shouldn't just be rugby, shouldn't just be soccer because what you want someone to find a physical outlet that they get their joy from,

[00:24:15] Gerry Scullion: and if

[00:24:15] Suzanne Hanway: we really have it that narrow children, then just, I suppose they get, they, they gotta say, I'm not good at sports.

[00:24:21] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, just

[00:24:21] Suzanne Hanway: haven't found your sport, you know, brings me back to my own school, school days and.

[00:24:26] Suzanne Hanway: We honor PE teacher did was basketball and rounders, which I was absolutely rubbish at. Rubbish at. And you just had to do that. And there wasn't, there was no other options. And certainly as a, as a, as a younger adult, it took me longer to navigate and find the sports that I got my joy from. But that was because I'm just that kind of a person.

[00:24:45] Suzanne Hanway: The system wasn't doing it.

[00:24:47] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:24:47] Suzanne Hanway: And I do think schools need to make sure they offer enough after school, they offer enough sports that. Children can find their physical outlet that they get their their joy. And because we see a [00:25:00] huge correlation with children maybe who have DCD, who never find that sport, they get obese mental health problems developed later on in life.

[00:25:06] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. So it's actually really important to do all that sampling. And find the activity that gives you joy.

[00:25:13] Gerry Scullion: So it's not really about, um, an alternative then, is what I'm hearing. Like if you, if you like sport, um, great, you've got lots of opportunities. If you don't like sport, don't give up on it. Find a sport that they, the child does like, but there is an alternative.

[00:25:29] Gerry Scullion: Nearly needs to be complimentary. Think you need to do both. For children think,

[00:25:31] Suzanne Hanway: I think you need to do both. You need to do the creative medium and you need to do the sports medium. Yeah, I think they shouldn't be, they shouldn't be neglected.

[00:25:39] Gerry Scullion: That's really interesting. 'cause a lot of people, a lot of the parents that I spoke to and I was kind of like prototyping makers and tours, they were like, oh, this is great.

[00:25:46] Gerry Scullion: It gives them an alternative to not having to go and do the, the football on the mo on the Sundays or the Saturdays, whatever days. And I was like, yeah, but it still didn't really sit right with me. And it's, it's really refreshing for you. For me to hear that you're saying that it [00:26:00] should be complimentary.

[00:26:00] Gerry Scullion: It's not just an exclusionary exercise

[00:26:03] Suzanne Hanway: and maybe, maybe that occupies more of their leisure time. The creative that's okay. And the same way someone who maybe the more you know, occupies more of their time, but it's to get, to get the mix, get the mix of, of the, of the two of them is important and can be hard for some.

[00:26:18] Suzanne Hanway: For some children to find that, you know? Sure,

[00:26:20] Gerry Scullion: yeah. Absolutely. Especially in a crowded space. Like, you know, when you, um, go out in a Saturday morning in your car to drop your kid to a a, a sporting event, you just see how many sporting events have just popped up in the last 10 years. Um, it was the same in Australia.

[00:26:36] Gerry Scullion: Same here. I think the world is kind of like realizing that there's a lot of, uh, benefits for this extracurricular, um, activities after school.

[00:26:46] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. Yes and no. I think as. I, I, you want after school activities?

[00:26:50] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:50] Suzanne Hanway: Well, you want, yeah, you want that unstructured time?

[00:26:54] Gerry Scullion: I was about to say, what does that come with a risk?

[00:26:59] Gerry Scullion: [00:27:00] Um, and I know from speaking to you before, a little light bulb went off in my head. I wouldn't claim to have a big light bulb going off in my head because, you know, my brain isn't as big as, uh, you'd think it is. But you saying to me before that too much and too many of these classes in terms of structured play has its disadvantages.

[00:27:20] Gerry Scullion: Hmm. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

[00:27:23] Suzanne Hanway: I think you think of what we talk about ideation, being able to figure out how to occupy your time.

[00:27:29] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:27:30] Suzanne Hanway: If we, if we schedule our children, and it's not always the case. Some kids can have everything scheduled for them and they're fine. They can figure out, they can occupy what, and also that they're like, okay, what am I doing today?

[00:27:39] Suzanne Hanway: Where am I going? What activity am I going to? But the skill from a mental health point of view. A learning point of view. This, the ability to reflect and have time on your own as a child, as an adult, and figure out what you're gonna do and how you're gonna occupy your time is of such an important skill.

[00:27:56] Suzanne Hanway: Mm-hmm. And definitely as, as a parent, I can absolutely [00:28:00] relate how you need your, you know, your children occupied because you're working and you know, they can't just be, you know. Your child, you wanna reduce your child minding fees as well. So as you can see that from a parent's side, and I remember post posting an an in a, a parent's WhatsApp or, or social media form linked to my own, something like, like that and my own children's good.

[00:28:19] Suzanne Hanway: Oh, I got eaten. And I went, oh, okay, I won. Like, you're obviously not a working parent. What working parent, you know? And maybe that free time is a little bit at the weekend when you're not, when you're not at work, but you really are empowering your child with powerful skill.

[00:28:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. So you to be able to go, okay, you've got an

[00:28:36] Suzanne Hanway: afternoon, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do some painting.

[00:28:39] Suzanne Hanway: I'm gonna, I'm just gonna read a book. You know, and being able to, to quieten ourself down as well, because you're, you're, you're, you're, you're like a rollercoaster and you're up there all the time and you're doing all the activities and the parade needs to be able to go, okay, I can slow myself down.

[00:28:54] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:28:54] Suzanne Hanway: You know, that ability to sense to come down is, is really important [00:29:00] as opposed to, I have to be going all the time. I can't slow down. I can't slow down.

[00:29:04] Gerry Scullion: That was in one of the pre-chat we had for this. You were talking about that whole kind of giving space and permission for them to do what they want.

[00:29:13] Gerry Scullion: And our, my children are quite young, like they're four and a half and nearly seven, and I was kinda like, oh. I, we haven't really done that. Yeah. Like on Saturday afternoons, it's, it's usually like, okay, let's, let's do something else. Yeah. After a busy Saturday morning. Whereas now we're starting to weave in some of your advice in terms of, okay, like for the next, you know, two hours you get to do what you want.

[00:29:35] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Um, and it could be just letting them play in the garden. It could be letting them do Lego, whatever it is, like, you know, but the children are finding it difficult. Well, my children are finding it difficult to let go without. Parental supervision, and I know I'm not alone in this. So what advice would you give to parents who are trying to incorporate some of the things that we've spoken about today in this episode, and they're struggling with their [00:30:00] child's neediness and cleanliness saying, come on mommy, you need to play me.

[00:30:04] Gerry Scullion: Come on daddy, push me in the swing. How do you get around that? How do you, how do you introduce this without having them kick off and, you know, getting a thump in the head? That's, I think sometimes the,

[00:30:15] Suzanne Hanway: so adult needs to engage with the child. Some do, if, if they haven't got the ability to play on their own yet, it's sometimes the adult getting that connect with the child.

[00:30:24] Suzanne Hanway: Mm-hmm. Um, and getting the child then in that zone where they're nice in regulation and they haven't got attachments and regulation. There. There's a concept in, in a framework called sensory attachments, um, intervention by an OT called Ian, who's absolutely amazing. Mm-hmm. And she developed this model, uh, around.

[00:30:41] Suzanne Hanway: Sensory attachment for, for children who've had adverse, adverse, you know, childhood experiences. Sure. And one of the things she's really strong at is the activity that you have shared joy and pleasure. So it's the adult and the child finding something that they can connect and they both. Can have that shared joy and pleasure with, and with that [00:31:00] comes connection, comes regulation.

[00:31:02] Suzanne Hanway: And then when the child is connected and regulated, then they're able to go off a little bit on the road. Okay. So it's, it's also grading and, and going, okay, well maybe they're not able for the two hours. Maybe it's just a half an hour. Maybe it's only 10 minutes. So it's build it up, build up,

[00:31:15] Gerry Scullion: build it up.

[00:31:16] Gerry Scullion: It's

[00:31:16] Suzanne Hanway: building it up so it, it's setting the targets right. Yeah. And, and as a clinician, you know, you have to reflect on that. As a parent, I think you have to, 'cause you can set the bar so high, we're setting ourselves as parents of for failure. You're setting yourself as a, as a professional. Oh God. Now that was, you know, it's like someone saying to me, you're gonna have a six pack by the end of the week, like.

[00:31:39] Gerry Scullion: I haven't done any exercise. How did you know?

[00:31:41] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah, yeah. You know, so we have to set the bar at the right, you know, it's a just right challenge, you know, and there's so many little phrases that I've kept as a therapist from, you know, maybe a, a clinician I was really in influenced or a course I really did.

[00:31:55] Suzanne Hanway: Things like shared joy and pleasure, connect the, that [00:32:00] connect before you regulate, um, the shared during pleasure, the connect, and then the, what was the other one? What was the other one I was saying?

[00:32:08] Gerry Scullion: Share joy and pleasure.

[00:32:10] Suzanne Hanway: Regulate the just right challenge.

[00:32:12] Gerry Scullion: The just right challenge. The just

[00:32:13] Suzanne Hanway: right challenge because you can set, like, I could have, have a session for a child set up with all my goals.

[00:32:19] Gerry Scullion: Hmm. And all

[00:32:20] Suzanne Hanway: my ideas and all my challenges. And the child could come into the room and I go, do you know what? They've had a, a difficult transition. They're, they're not really in the zone of sitting down and doing this activity. Yeah. I'm gonna have to change tack, so I'm gonna have to get my challenge just right as to where they are at.

[00:32:34] Suzanne Hanway: And I have to connect with where they're at. Then when I connect with where they're at, they're gonna be more regulated. Then we can challenge.

[00:32:42] Gerry Scullion: Okay. In terms of accessing services, it was one of the first things that you called out in, in terms of the difficulties for parents at the moment trying to, trying to find the right channel, the right support channel.

[00:32:55] Gerry Scullion: In some cases it can take years for a parent to find [00:33:00] a, a resource and then B, the right resource. Yeah, yeah. Um, 'cause they're waiting so long before they can actually experience it for people at the moment, um, who may have a sense that their child is neurodiverse, um, what advice do you give them in terms of being able to support them in the interim?

[00:33:22] Suzanne Hanway: I think it's not jumping the gun to do formal diagnostic assessments straight away. Mm-hmm. I, I've had quite a lot of parents that come to me at the end of a journey and they've done so many assessments and they still otherwise are about how to work with their, with their child. I think it's finding, finding a person who can support you to go, okay, where are we at?

[00:33:43] Suzanne Hanway: How can we map where we need to go to? What do we need to do first? What do we need to to do next? The HSE run, lovely drop in clinics, that can be quite useful. You know, once a month they do drop in clinics and I would encourage a lot of parents to, to do that in my own practice, I do that quite a lot at the [00:34:00] start and I've turned away people and said, you know what?

[00:34:02] Suzanne Hanway: In your journey, I don't think OT is where we need to to start.

[00:34:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:34:07] Suzanne Hanway: If I do assessments, I will always try and map out, this is really a priority. This is what we need to look at now next. Mapping that out. But I think as a parent, it's really finding someone who you can connect with on a relational level, because when you get that relational connection, then I think it's much easier to map things out.

[00:34:28] Suzanne Hanway: You know? And I've seen so many reports from parents and, and they pay so many, so much money for. And they're not buying into it.

[00:34:35] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:34:35] Suzanne Hanway: But they felt because this person had all these letters after the name, you know, or they so many years of experience that, oh, oh, this person must be right. Not always. Not always.

[00:34:44] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:34:44] Suzanne Hanway: You know, there are some cases that it can be very hard to figure out that diagnosis and it needs a very skilled team of, of, of clinicians as well.

[00:34:54] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:34:54] Suzanne Hanway: But I think it's not writing off the HSC, there's some, you know, some nice things going on within the different [00:35:00] areas, dropping clinics. For ot, for psychology, and they're chat and they can be good starting places.

[00:35:07] Suzanne Hanway: So to link with someone within either the HSC, you know, if your GP is really good, if you've a private therapist in it and I just want to brainstorm and I don't know where to go. And I would do that a lot in practice and it really shifted how I provide services to, to, to families.

[00:35:25] Gerry Scullion: One of the things that I wanted to kind of start wrapping up the conversation on is the proliferation of Instagram.

[00:35:33] Gerry Scullion: A lot of parents, myself included, use it and there's a lot of mom's advice out there that maybe have parent or have children who are neurodivergent and they're offering advice. How do you see that playing out

[00:35:50] Suzanne Hanway: about social media? Hmm. Definitely a mix of its, and there's some wonderful Instagram accounts, and then there's some, one that, there's some [00:36:00] that, I think they're quite fake.

[00:36:00] Suzanne Hanway: They're quite false. It's about the, how it looks.

[00:36:03] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:36:04] Suzanne Hanway: Um, I know myself, I try, I, I, I share a little bit on my social media. Not a huge amount. Um, I think the pressure, the pressure to kind of have it look amazing. Have your makeup, have your hair, have your content looking really snazzy and then getting too generalized in recommendation.

[00:36:22] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah, and I see a lot of content on social media and that's, I say there's some wonderful stuff. Really, really, and it's too generalized. You can't, you can't generalize some things, but some of it really isn't going to fit for your, your child. So I think it's not to use that as your Bible. I think it's dip in.

[00:36:38] Suzanne Hanway: Step out.

[00:36:39] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:36:40] Suzanne Hanway: And my

[00:36:40] Gerry Scullion: friend Rachel deas, who's a trauma informed design specialist in, uh, the White House at the moment. She calls it practicing Without a license. Yeah. Um, and there's That's really good. That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, there is a risk Where comes comes with that? What are the pieces, I just wanna go back to, um, you mentioned there were an [00:37:00] ideation and the praxis, uh, part of the brain really struggles.

[00:37:05] Gerry Scullion: In the prelude to this, you were saying some people just can't do it. They just can't do ideation. And for all the people out there who run workshops, myself included, for, for clients, I've seen this firsthand. I watch people in, you know, leadership and executive positions being tasked with some stuff that in the design world, we'd be like, this is pretty, this should be easy enough.

[00:37:29] Gerry Scullion: And we whisper it and we just watch them stand there. And like, you know, like fun and not be able to actually attempt it. What's happening there? Was that a case of like way back they were unsupported in their development and they weren't able to, I. Play or could be, it could be

[00:37:49] Suzanne Hanway: their, their lid is flipped.

[00:37:52] Gerry Scullion: Right. Okay. You know, so you're, if that lid flipped is regulated to help them, what can we do to help them?

[00:37:59] Suzanne Hanway: You know, it could be at the [00:38:00] start of maybe an activity or like a workshop. Have a movement,

[00:38:03] Gerry Scullion: right.

[00:38:04] Suzanne Hanway: Not the movement is the answer. It sounds like movement is the answer for, you know, it's Michael Jackson.

[00:38:09] Suzanne Hanway: Um, it might be doing that, getting that movement. So if someone is coming in to the bilateral

[00:38:14] Gerry Scullion: movements. That

[00:38:16] Suzanne Hanway: remove me exactly. Exactly what you think. You might go into a workshop and you might be stressed. You might be socially anxious. Yeah. You know, some people go into to those social situations, less people, they don't know, so your limbic system gets activated.

[00:38:29] Gerry Scullion: Right. You know? Okay. Your limbic

[00:38:31] Suzanne Hanway: system gets more activated and if your limbic system gets activated, as I said, flip the lid. Yeah. So, and then you're like, okay, come up with an idea, but you're limbic system. It could be even something simple like a really winy cold drink as well. Like the, the, the nerve that connect, you know, the baby nerve that connects the, the gut and the brain.

[00:38:48] Suzanne Hanway: A cold drink, smashing some cold water, settle that down, breathing, you know, so either doing, there's a big shift to mindfulness and some really, really, really interesting stuff. But I think [00:39:00] doing mindfulness. Movement before then the, the more challenging cognitive tasks. So everyone is in that zone.

[00:39:07] Suzanne Hanway: Everyone is in a more regulated zone because everyone will respond different to coming into that environment and the stresses and the unfamiliar as well.

[00:39:15] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Suzanne? You could talk about this stuff and I know you can talk about it Four days. Okay. How do you say? That's what my husband

[00:39:25] Suzanne Hanway: says. You're not still talking about Same thing.

[00:39:28] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Is it a case that he could ask a question, leave the room and come back in and you're still talking about it,

[00:39:35] Suzanne Hanway: or possibly quite like, it's my passion, you know? I know, I know.

[00:39:38] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. It, it, you know, I love the

[00:39:39] Suzanne Hanway: work I do. I love problem solving. Yeah. I love being, you know, there's, there's an ot Kim Bartel who uses the term, a behavioral detective.

[00:39:49] Suzanne Hanway: Mm. You love trying to figure out, you don't always figure out, but I certainly enjoy the The challenge. The challenge,

[00:39:55] Gerry Scullion: yeah. And I'm not

[00:39:56] Suzanne Hanway: afraid to ask someone else if I don't know, I'm not. Therapist that goes, I know [00:40:00] everything. I know a lot.

[00:40:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. But

[00:40:02] Suzanne Hanway: I use the parents as a resource. I learned from the parents I work with, you've given me, you know, resources and tips and I really learned from the children that I work with.

[00:40:11] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah. And I think to be that humble in your practice is really, I don't want to present this facade, you know, on Instagram that I'm this, you know, groom. That's perfect, perfect person. You know, I'm flawed. I have my. Character traits that, you know, my personality traits maybe that, oh, that's not, not, not the best, but,

[00:40:31] Gerry Scullion: well we all think you're brilliant.

[00:40:32] Suzanne Hanway: Oh, thank you very much. But I think you all think

[00:40:34] Gerry Scullion: brilliant,

[00:40:34] Suzanne Hanway: having that thirst for learning and it's constantly evolving. You know, I've been an OT for a long time, but I don't, I still feel my learning is developing.

[00:40:44] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:40:44] Suzanne Hanway: You know, and that's why I loved when you were doing, you know, your workshops like, oh, that's really exciting.

[00:40:48] Suzanne Hanway: That's really different. Yeah. I think that was great.

[00:40:51] Gerry Scullion: Where do you go to stay up to date? I. Like what, where are your, um, kind of knowledge pools that you, you look at and learn from the peer

[00:40:59] Suzanne Hanway: [00:41:00] group? I'm really, really lucky that I have a network of, of peers within my area and we'll share ideas, I think.

[00:41:06] Suzanne Hanway: Mm-hmm. Interdisciplinary resources as well. Yeah. I work, you know, quite closely with speech and language therapist, psychologist, parent, so I keep up to date multiple ways, you know? Mm-hmm. Social media to some degree, but I. I can, you know, and you can go down the route and you buy a book that you've seen in social media and I've done it.

[00:41:25] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:41:26] Suzanne Hanway: And someone asked me recently about something that I bought through social media and said, did you read it? I, so I got to chapter two.

[00:41:33] Gerry Scullion: Right.

[00:41:33] Suzanne Hanway: You know, so it was marketed, it was, it was really sold. And it was, oh my God, this has gone to be amazing. And then I got, and I went, the contents of it.

[00:41:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Bit wishy.

[00:41:42] Suzanne Hanway: So, and obviously kind of journals, courses, it can get quite difficult when you've been an OT for as long as I have because courses that are fresh, courses that are new, you know, there's a certain kind of cycle of courses and three the courses that go around so it can be harder. Mm-hmm. You know, I went to England for years to [00:42:00] train in neurodevelopment therapy because of that.

[00:42:02] Suzanne Hanway: Um, yeah. So, yeah, it's just being open and I think then the knowledge will find you and having those connections with people that inspire you as well.

[00:42:11] Gerry Scullion: Do you wanna give a shout out to any books that you think that you're like, that is a good book and that is a recommendation for any parents? I love the well balanced

[00:42:18] Suzanne Hanway: child.

[00:42:19] Suzanne Hanway: Oh

[00:42:20] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[00:42:20] Suzanne Hanway: Um, by Sally Goddard. Bly. Yeah. I, uh, which is about all our early life experiences and, and, and, you know, our primary reflexes and how that can affect learning. There's another book by an Irish OT Enis, Lawler Max and Me, a story about sensory processing, which I love. And the kids that come into me love it's cartoon and it's about it, boy called Max Modulator and what it's like to be in his world, but it's very affirmative.

[00:42:45] Suzanne Hanway: Yeah, love, love those two books.

[00:42:47] Gerry Scullion: Okay, nice. I'll find them. I'll put a link to them in the show notes. Suzanne, if people wanna reach out to you and follow you and learn more about what you do, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you? Yeah,

[00:42:58] Suzanne Hanway: I'm on [00:43:00] Instagram. Um, I, I think I didn't change my handle.

[00:43:03] Suzanne Hanway: I used to do a group called Master Movers. Um, so I think it's Master Movers ot. I'll

[00:43:09] Gerry Scullion: find it and I'll put it into the show notes. Yeah.

[00:43:11] Suzanne Hanway: Um, and then my email, Suzanne hanway@gmail.com. That's always awesome. That's always a good, a good starting one. Suzanne.

[00:43:17] Gerry Scullion: I wrap every episode up by thanking the guests for their, you know, vulnerability, giving me their time and energy and being put on the spot and being able to speak with somebody like me.

[00:43:27] Gerry Scullion: Um, you know, I really, really appreciate it 'cause I know you are so busy. If people realize Suzanne Hanway, like the demand for Suzanne Hanway is through the stratosphere. So to gimme an hour of your time, uh, I really, really appreciate it. So keep doing the, the great work that you're doing and in the future you're always welcome back to the podcast.

[00:43:49] Gerry Scullion: I

[00:43:49] Suzanne Hanway: really enjoyed it and it's really interesting just to kind of finish up, I was getting ready to come and I was putting on this kind of more formal shirt. And I looked at myself, I, oh, that's not giving me joy [00:44:00] and my favorite color is orange and I, is this not remotely a work? A work Like if you want to present to, it's a, and I went, do you know what?

[00:44:06] Suzanne Hanway: It's giving me joy and I'm gonna be in the zone. I'm gonna be comfortable as opposed to the, you know, quite stuffy shirt that might look very professional. And I went, you know, I wanna have joy. I want to show the real me and I want to be in the zone and not be. That's great to do that because

[00:44:23] Gerry Scullion: everyone who listens and watches on this podcast, they're all about, you know, kind of presenting their best self.

[00:44:30] Gerry Scullion: So yeah. You know, you're living the mantra. Suzanne, thanks so much.

[00:44:34] Suzanne Hanway: Listen, thanks Megan. Bye.

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