Nicole Lachenmeier 'UN-Designing Complexity: Beyond Templates to True Visualization'

[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] I'm so delighted to have you on the podcast. We spoke, I caught up with Darjan, it's probably six months ago now, I'd say, at this stage, and I was speaking to Darian, whatever the book you meant, but you're obviously you worked together with Darian Hill you wrote an incredible book, the book that I really hold in the highest regard as one of the most beautiful books to hold in your hands.

[00:02:52] Gerry Scullion: It feels amazing, and it looks amazing. So, And I'm not just saying that because you're on the podcast. Like [00:03:00] I've said it in all my trainings and stuff that I really encourage people to pick this book up. So maybe we'll start off like I start nearly every episode off with tell me a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do.

[00:03:14] Nicole Lachenmeir: So I am Nicole. I'm a trained graphic designer. I'm Swiss, so I live in Basel, in Switzerland. Also, our studio, super studio is based in Basel. I studied in Basel, so yeah. I just stayed here because I think so many international people came here. Yeah, I think that's about the most important.

[00:03:40] Gerry Scullion: So, let's talk about the creation of the book, okay, because this book I remember when I was speaking to Darian, he was like saying, is there really a need for a book? What do we have to bring to the conversation around visualizing complexity and For me, it's kind of a shocking statement [00:04:00] because the book has actually filled a huge void for me.

[00:04:04] Gerry Scullion: Like it really introduced me to an awful lot of stuff. And I would have a, I'd like to think I've got a pretty decent grasp on some of these things, but I really liked. The book generally, so when you were working through that kind of process of, I guess, questioning that, how did you get over that? How did you get over those kind of conversations that you're saying?

[00:04:26] Gerry Scullion: Is this, are we, is this a good thing to be doing? Is this, what was that like? Can you remember? Can you reflect on that?

[00:04:34] Nicole Lachenmeir: absolutely. So anyway, thank you for the great feedback on the book. It's for us, this is like really important to know what people think, like positive, but also negative. Even understand what we are. Yeah, what we are trying to do with this book at all. So, yeah, as I said, I'm a graphic designer.

[00:04:55] Nicole Lachenmeir: So, I went into data with the. Like, I started with data on [00:05:00] a research project because I worked as a research assistant at the University of Arts and Design in Basel. And then during that, I went to the master's program where I met Diane. And why I'm telling that is like, He has a background of a business informatics guy.

[00:05:19] Nicole Lachenmeir: So he's not a trained graphic designer and I'm a really classically trained graphic designer. So I started in the early 2000s. So, of course, we had computers and everything, but. We were still working analogically a lot. So, when we started the book, actually, it was the idea to combine, like, Diane's approach and mine, and kind of trying to bring that together.

[00:05:51] Nicole Lachenmeir: So he maybe had more this data background, and I had more this background of, like, really this step by step design, and... [00:06:00] Doing a lot of variations in design because I was trained like that and we were, you know, trying to bring that together. So we yeah, so the pandemic was not so fun for everyone, I guess, but it gave us the opportunity and the time because many projects stopped his clients, they just disappeared.

[00:06:21] Nicole Lachenmeir: So we said, okay, let's go to this cottage in the mountains for some weeks. And we just, each of us, we try to down and draw what we think is our approach to designing with data.

[00:06:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:06:40] Nicole Lachenmeir: And yeah, and also, you know, our rule was not to look at other books, not to look at other frameworks, not to look at other data books, because there are books about data visualization out there.

[00:06:54] Nicole Lachenmeir: So ours is maybe not so much on the data visualization, but still

[00:06:59] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Nicole Lachenmeir: intimidated when you look at all the other publications. Okay. Maybe I can say that. Okay. So I think Diane and me, we have a good. Of course we fight for our

[00:07:13] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:07:14] Nicole Lachenmeir: beliefs, but yeah, I think in the end it's good to have two different kind of perspectives.

[00:07:21] Gerry Scullion: It's I'm sure you do fight like, you know, like every good creative relationship. Yeah. You need that sort of steam to be let off, but the tension is positive depending on how you use it, but the bit that I'm really interested in, like, you could have called the book visualizing data, okay, would have been pretty, but visualizing complexity is the bit that I'm really interested in right now, and I'd love to speak to you a little bit more around that.

[00:07:50] Gerry Scullion: I gave in Scotland in June, I spoke about how Design is at a point where we're now going to be approaching problem [00:08:00] solving of much more complex problems and problems like society and societal homelessness and inequality and all of these huge problems that are around us. Really things like journey maps and service blueprints and empathy map.

[00:08:18] Gerry Scullion: They kind of hit their limits at that point of kind of saying, well, we can talk about them. It's good to talk about them. They can become boundary objects to really create alignment. They're very powerful. There's no sort of denying that. But what I really like, I guess the kind of bit when I saw the book.

[00:08:38] Gerry Scullion: I didn't have to look too far, I was like, okay, buying it because the word complexity was in there. I want to understand what was going on, but I want to understand a little bit more around the use of the word complexity within the title of the book. Was that a conscious decision?

[00:08:54] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah, well, first of all, maybe when we first opened the studio, we[00:09:00] we had a different name. We were called EI, but then the subtitle was like Visualizing Complexity. So we were not like the studio for data design or something. It's also because in our practice, we we do not only design with data, or maybe it's a different kind of data.

[00:09:21] Nicole Lachenmeir: Very often that it's more like, it can also be text or like a structure or a strategy or something. So that's why we put the title complexity. Of course, the the examples are more like. Database. But in the book, there is this quite simple story. And it's actually a text in the beginning. And from that text, you extract the data and so on.

[00:09:45] Nicole Lachenmeir: So we really wanted to show like, you know, step by step. And that's happy to hear that. You know, yeah, you got the kind of message or you got the approach. It's really cool. [00:10:00] So,

[00:10:00] Gerry Scullion: It's the decision to work from a narrative into a visualization piece is really strong, like, you know, because a lot of the stuff that I have over here, like even, you know, Tufts books and stuff, they're very good, they're very good at visualizing the visualizations, but they don't really talk about the process that goes in to really unpacking that.

[00:10:22] Gerry Scullion: So, It was really refreshing to hear that. Now, when I was speaking to Darian, he was really open about that whole process of getting things structured in such a way to really visualize that. And one of the bits that came out of that conversation was the relative uniqueness to approaching visualizing new topics as opposed to what designers who might be listening to this, they already kind of know when they're going into research, what tools they're going to lean into.

[00:10:53] Gerry Scullion: They might say, well, I'm going to use a journey map or they might use any of the other more popular visualization tools [00:11:00] to really bring the research alive. What came clear from Darian's conversation was that isn't true for how you approach your work. So you treat it on a case by case basis usually. Is that true?

[00:11:14] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah, that's absolutely true. So first thing is that we can usually not work with, or we don't actually work with like templates. Or this diagram types, or you mentioned like, I don't know, like a flow chart this or this map stuff

[00:11:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:11:32] Nicole Lachenmeir: actually maybe sometimes it's similar, but we don't care so much. So, we really look into the content and we try to find the perfect form for the content.

[00:11:45] Nicole Lachenmeir: So, and this is usually not possible with templates. So, this step by step approach in the book. Should also communicate that you have like elements that are basic and you can [00:12:00] reuse them and you can combine them in different ways and we are convinced that when you combine these when you're are aware of these elements, you can.

[00:12:11] Nicole Lachenmeir: Combine it in new ways and you can find innovative diagrams or, you know, what that really fit the content. As you said, it's like, the problem solving is getting more complex. And I think then templates are just not enough if you really want to do something meaningful. And. Also something beautiful and something that where people that look at it have a good experience.

[00:12:35] Nicole Lachenmeir: I mean, that's also always super important to us. That's not just like there is this visualization, but how do people approach it? How do they read it? It should also be like fun and aesthetic. You know, it's even though the topic is hard, you should be motivated to, to look at it because there's like so many charts and diagrams everywhere, but if they [00:13:00] look like standard stuff, I don't even look at it or if I don't, yeah, it's, you know what I mean?

[00:13:08] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely.

[00:13:09] Nicole Lachenmeir: You have to give something more than the standards, but that's what we are convinced.

[00:13:16] Gerry Scullion: So, with the protests of getting The data structured into a table seems to be one of the key skills, like that whole kind of the ability to reflect and iterate at that level, as opposed to the visualization piece. It is a sequence, it's, it seems to be very waterfall on that approach. You have to work with the data first to try and get it into a structure that you feel like you can You can use it as a springboard, so to speak, versus iterative, where you're working with the data and you're working with the visuals.

[00:13:48] Gerry Scullion: Which is it? Is it a case of the former or the latter?

[00:13:52] Gerry Scullion: That was the bit that I was missing in the conversation with Darian.

[00:13:56] Nicole Lachenmeir: Okay. Okay. I tried to explain it. So [00:14:00] of course, usually we get like, some kind of data or some kind of material from the client, usually, and of course, it's never complete. So we look at it. We structure it. This is like one stream. And then the other side. We start with sketches that we do, we really do them by hand, like every time.

[00:14:22] Nicole Lachenmeir: It doesn't matter if the output is a website or a poster in the end.

[00:14:28] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:14:28] Nicole Lachenmeir: always start by hand because the thinking process is a much different one. And Then one stream maybe is also to think about the aesthetics and, you know, the look and feel that we want to achieve. And then we work with the structure that we have and We already start, but even, and then at the same time, maybe the client still has to work on it and refine it, but we can already [00:15:00] start.

[00:15:00] Nicole Lachenmeir: So it comes a bit from both sides. It's like multiple streams because when we wait till we have everything, we also don't get it done. But for us, it's really important that the client is also working with us. So he's the, he or she is like the expert of the content. And, you know, so, yeah, we can just support them to give us that material that we need. So, I don't know if that makes it a bit more clear, but

[00:15:34] Gerry Scullion: It does. It really helps. Like, you know, I guess with the bigger consultancies, this is some of their strengths that they may have. They may have a data science and a visualization practice that's within their organizations, but for the smaller practices, it seems like there's an oversight there from many to be really effective.

[00:15:53] Gerry Scullion: In their visualization and their storytelling, that piece tends to be trivialized a little bit. And what I'm really [00:16:00] enjoying from, you know, following yourself and Darren and SuperDodd on Instagram, I'll throw a link to that in the show notes folks is that whole kind of piece where it's like a resurgence Of graphic design and this discipline that I guess in the worlds of service design and user experience design, I guess it's fallen a little bit by the wayside in the digital world, it's seems to be sort of within the world of print magazines and stuff, I see that coming back an awful lot more now in the last couple of years, because as we elevate ourselves towards more tackling more serious, more complex problems, we need, we've got Generations, you know, since the press was created and we've kind of somewhat disregarded and leaned into more template based driven visualizations.

[00:16:46] Gerry Scullion: Is that fair to say, or am I imagining this that this is coming back where we realize that there's a huge gap there within design and we need to become better at

[00:16:58] Nicole Lachenmeir: yeah, I think it [00:17:00] depends from which perspective. You see it. I think there's like, in this database community, there's a big group that says, okay, look, this is right. And this is wrong. And this is the chart chooser. And for this kind of data, you use this and for that, you use that and. They, I think they have their space, but we are actually not interested in that too much

[00:17:24] Gerry Scullion: Okay.

[00:17:25] Nicole Lachenmeir: it's not so creative.

[00:17:26] Nicole Lachenmeir: It's more like if then, and yeah, well, and, but yeah, I think there's still a big potential to bring graphic design more into this field of beta, but I also realized it's not that easy. It's a super interesting job, but it's quite a hard job because that kind of the data and the structure and the story has to be correct and everything and the state, the story has to be interesting, but then on the same hand, you also want [00:18:00] like a great design.

[00:18:01] Nicole Lachenmeir: And when you achieve that, I mean, that's our goal to achieve that and to really have like, Yeah. this data experience design as we call it. Yeah, so that's also why we made this book to, to really try to bring these communities closer together, like this data scientist and the graphic designer, so that they find like a language to speak together.

[00:18:28] Gerry Scullion: When I was speaking to Darjan, there was a point in the conversation where. I wanted to understand a little bit more around the realization that, okay, now we have something to work with. So those triggers that you look for when you kind of go, okay, this looks like it's a good idea. This idea has legs and that seems to come from a place of experience and craft.

[00:18:52] Gerry Scullion: Is that the case? Are you okay to talk a little bit more around when you know you've arrived at something that's interesting? Because for the [00:19:00] people listening to the podcast. They may be tasked with doing some of these things where they have to go off piste and use their own kind of instinct to create a visualization to reflect complex problems.

[00:19:13] Gerry Scullion: How do you know, once your data has been structured, how do you know that you're on you're onto a good thing?

[00:19:19] Nicole Lachenmeir: [00:20:00] Well, I think you. You can really tell when you, I mean, what we do is like, as I said before the first part of the process is always the sketches we do by hand. And also we did the same in this cottage and later on in the studio when we worked on the book. And then, you know, just to or you can print whenever you do something digitally print everything out and look at the variations that you made and the different,

[00:20:44] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:20:44] Nicole Lachenmeir: You know, maybe flows that you created and then you can actually.

[00:20:51] Nicole Lachenmeir: When you see it, you can decide, you know, you have to do, that's also what the book is about to encourage to do variations, because when you [00:21:00] do variations, you can, yeah, you know, which one is better than the other one, but when you don't have something to compare, it's hard to say, and I think that approach also comes from the Basel School of Design, where I studied, because we had to do, like, Very basic exercises with typography like for weeks till you actually, you know, think that you have no idea anymore what you can do with this restriction within these restrictions.

[00:21:37] Nicole Lachenmeir: And maybe you think I wanted to study graphic design because I want to do some great posters and not this simple stuff. But in the end, you realize that was actually the most important exercise that. that we have ever done. And you can use that approach no matter with what tool, you know, you always [00:22:00] have to be aware of what you are changing.

[00:22:01] Nicole Lachenmeir: And when you have a series of designs that you made, I think when you compare them you can define much better, which one works, or you have a good basis also to discuss or to test it with someone. So just to have one result and say, look, how do you like it? It's a bit like, difficult.

[00:22:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, it's binary, yes or no, like, you know, you know, over the last, I guess, six months, 10 months, maybe AI, I mean, I told a bit more around AI folks, I'm sure people are rolling their eyes up to heaven. Where do you see, where do you see the whole kind of you know, mid journey and all of these pieces, like, is there a risk there to the craft of graphic design?

[00:22:45] Gerry Scullion: What's your think on the whole kind of the impact of AI on the industry? generally from a data visualization perspective.

[00:22:56] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah. So, I'm actually more looking [00:23:00] forward than like being afraid or something for the industry. I think at the moment it's maybe a bit more like this mid journey stuff. It's fun, but it's a bit random still. And it's, you know, funny to, to explore it. And from my point of view, you cannot really use it yet.

[00:23:21] Nicole Lachenmeir: Maybe we have some quite nice filters for Photoshop that work already, but the point to really have a good support for like the boring stuff anyway, you don't want to do. is not there yet and I would be super happy. I mean, I did, I designed all these graphics in the book in Illustrator and you can do that, but it's actually a pain in the ass.

[00:23:47] Nicole Lachenmeir: So I would know exactly what to prompt Illustrator to do that for me, but you cannot do that yet. So, I think actually our [00:24:00] approach with the book matches quite well with all this AI approach because It's about, you know, defining that like your parameters and then you play with the parameters and also when you prompt actually should be aware of what parameter you are changing.

[00:24:20] Nicole Lachenmeir: Of course, it's not as simple as in the book, but from the idea to understand actually how AI could work. I think it's quite. I think it's relating. I don't know.

[00:24:34] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Yeah. So you're not, it's really

[00:24:36] Nicole Lachenmeir: what I'm thinking about. Like, that also the old school exercises actually fit into this AI world and I'm looking forward to be able to.

[00:24:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:24:48] Nicole Lachenmeir: more like that, not to do manually everything in Illustrator, or if we do a series, we code it, of course. But, yeah, that's also why our book is totally, like, [00:25:00] tool independent. It doesn't say, yeah, with this you can do a tableau, and you can hack that. I don't care, use what you want. You can use pen and papers, and then find a tool that matches for what you want to do, or you code it, or, I don't know.

[00:25:14] Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You've managed to work with on work on some incredible projects. Like, you know, when I look at the super. website, I know you've got two exhibitions coming up at the moment. But for people who are out there who are graphic designers and the graphic design students, and they look at your work and they kind of go, wow, this is, because it is beautiful.

[00:25:33] Gerry Scullion: You know, I've said it to you on Instagram many times and you're like, stop it. Stop saying so many nice things. But like, what advice do you give to people who are entering the industry now? Like, you know, cause it is a, I guess it is a crazy time for anyone to be getting started in design. There's so much flux.

[00:25:53] Gerry Scullion: That's with an FLUX. There's so many flux, so much flux going on at the moment. What [00:26:00] advice do you give to those designers out there who are just getting started?

[00:26:06] Nicole Lachenmeir: yeah, I would say also, I mean, we also have students and different, design schools where we teach data with, but in general also there, we just, we work with pen and paper first. So, I think I would always do that to sketch ideas or to start something. And then I would say, like, just. Be curious, like tools are changing like all the time.

[00:26:32] Nicole Lachenmeir: Just try it, test it, see what works for you. I think it's like in design, it's like a lifelong learning. And you know, if you like that, if you like, like new stuff, like all the time, then it's great

[00:26:47] Gerry Scullion: Can I talk to you about your you your toolkit, okay? Because I guess people are fascinated with how you go about doing these things. You mentioned Illustrator there, okay? I've got a hate, hate relationship with [00:27:00] Adobe, okay? So I just, it's too expensive and so forth. What other tools do you use to achieve this level of kind of wonderfulness in your work?

[00:27:11] Gerry Scullion: Like do you use iPad Pros or what does it look like? If you're to open up your bag and your desk, Yeah.

[00:27:18] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, well, of course, we have we are still in that Adobe CC suite yeah, program collection. We use all of them. I mean, me personally, I love InDesign. I think if I had to choose for one program, it would still be InDesign. And then yeah, we use like Excel or similar ones for really the basic structure.

[00:27:40] Nicole Lachenmeir: And is like our, excel designers, because also a nice instruction table is more fun and people are more willing to work with it. So that's already the first step, as I mentioned, like pen, paper, like always. And then, of course, [00:28:00] now it's since we have also quite a lot of web projects we worked with.

[00:28:05] Nicole Lachenmeir: XDB4, but also now we work with Figma and they just changed the workflow so that development and design can come closer together. And since we started the studio we have always had a developer in the team. So we also have that. So that is quite fluid. So we don't do everything manually in Illustrator.

[00:28:27] Nicole Lachenmeir: We always discuss like, what is the perfect approach. What are we doing in code and what are we doing manually and what do I do in the hand to test it? So it's, yeah it's always like, yeah, you always have to balance that and to be open for new tools as well. And then we started to do, to work with like online air stuff, augmented reality stuff.

[00:28:52] Nicole Lachenmeir: And we started to use Blend more and we started to blend the three D. Design [00:29:00] tool that is for free

[00:29:02] Gerry Scullion: Okay.

[00:29:03] Nicole Lachenmeir: you can also code with blender, you know, just like.

[00:29:06] Gerry Scullion: blender. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:08] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah, you can also load data into Blender, so we do some experiments as well in that side, but yeah.

[00:29:16] Gerry Scullion: I've noticed the on data and design the group, I think that yourself and Darien run, is that right?

[00:29:24] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yes.

[00:29:26] Gerry Scullion: What's the power of community and how important is the power of community and sharing other data visuals and education? Is this how you tend to learn about the craft evolving?

[00:29:41] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah, I think what we try to achieve with this on datum design is a bit similar than with the book to bring, like, different disciplines together. Different disciplines in the, yeah, very broad field of visualization. So it can be anything from a philosopher [00:30:00] that talks about, I don't know, data or something, or a sociologist or a designer.

[00:30:08] Nicole Lachenmeir: And yeah, it's really great. You should everyone should look, of course, at Our YouTube channel where you can watch all the episodes still and the most interesting is always the discussion at the end is like a super short panel where the different speakers come together and just answer the questions of the audience.

[00:30:31] Nicole Lachenmeir: And yeah, before the pandemic it was also in place in Basel, Vienna, and in Berlin. But then with the pandemic, everything was online, which is great, but it's harder to connect.

[00:30:44] Gerry Scullion: yeah,

[00:30:46] Nicole Lachenmeir: So it's a bit more one sided. We're trying to establish like groups that watch on daytime design somewhere it could be in a studio or at the home of someone [00:31:00] and then connect with these people again, or.

[00:31:03] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah. And now people can also come back to our studio for a beer after. So,

[00:31:08] Gerry Scullion: nice.

[00:31:09] Nicole Lachenmeir: so we're trying. Yeah.

[00:31:12] Gerry Scullion: Trying to socialize and connect meaning and

[00:31:15] Nicole Lachenmeir: a bit more again, yeah, in person.

[00:31:18] Gerry Scullion: absolutely. What are your thoughts for the future? Because visualizing complexity before, you know, it is going to be one. It's when was it published? I think it was January. Was it

[00:31:29] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah, May 2020. Yeah, so it's a bit,

[00:31:34] Gerry Scullion: I came

[00:31:34] Nicole Lachenmeir: it's a bit

[00:31:35] Gerry Scullion: it. I came to it

[00:31:38] Nicole Lachenmeir: yeah, the Kickstarter was, oh, you found it on Kickstarter, you said.

[00:31:42] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I found it on kickstart, but then I ended up buying it from superdash.

[00:31:46] Nicole Lachenmeir: Oh, that's awesome.

[00:31:48] Gerry Scullion: So I, I've yet to be with the first book. It's been like. I believe it's been received very well because anyone who I've recommended it to have bought it and they also thought it was amazing. [00:32:00] What's the future looking like if you wanted to extend that book into another book by Superdark?

[00:32:06] Gerry Scullion: What do you think it might be?

[00:32:10] Nicole Lachenmeir: I think now it's more like, even though it's like a step by step thing, it's more like a theory book. And our idea is to launch a workbook as soon as possible. So you can really get your hands on and maybe also do some online classes too. To really teach that approach. I think that will be the next step

[00:32:36] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, well.

[00:32:37] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah,

[00:32:38] Gerry Scullion: Well, when you get to that point, you, I'd love to have yourself and Darian back on at the same time to talk about what that looks like, because I know there's definitely people out there who will follow you on Instagram, and will want to learn a little bit more from the two masters, Darian and Nicole.

[00:32:55] Gerry Scullion: So when you get to that point where you have something ready just drop us an email and we'll have you back on the show to, to [00:33:00] promote that new book or new course, whatever it is like, you know, I'd love to share that information with the community. Nicole, if people want to reach out to you, no, but if people want to reach out to you and, you know, connect with you and ask questions, what's the best way for people to do that?

[00:33:18] Nicole Lachenmeir: Yeah, I mean, probably the easiest is maybe like on LinkedIn or Instagram or this platform. That's the ones we use most or otherwise just drop us an email, but maybe that's too formal. So the informal way I think would be like, just LinkedIn. Instagram is. easier, maybe more spontaneous, if you just want to say, yeah, you can also just say, hi, I bought your book.

[00:33:43] Nicole Lachenmeir: I like it or I hate it. I mean, that's always, I mean, for us, it's always just great to, to hear from people and to know who is actually behind the, yeah, the buyers.

[00:33:54] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:55] Nicole Lachenmeir: that's why we also are selling it directly from our website. Just to have a bit of feeling [00:34:00] of where it's going to,

[00:34:01] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely.

[00:34:02] Nicole Lachenmeir: just, yeah, just it's amazing.

[00:34:04] Nicole Lachenmeir: And from how many countries people are buying the book. So just the other day we had like Brazil and Vietnam and Japan and New Zealand and we are always like super exciting when we see that, you know, it's like, wow,

[00:34:16] Gerry Scullion: But look, I'll put a link to the book again and a link to SuperDot and also link to Darian's in here and you want to listen to the other partner of SuperDot Studio in Switzerland, I'll put a link to that episode in there as well because it's really interesting. Nicole, thank you so much for giving me your time this morning.

[00:34:36] Gerry Scullion: Excited to finally speak with you. I end every episode by thanking people for their energy and their openness and their vulnerability of listening to me ask questions on the spot. So listen up. Thanks so much for your time this morning.

[00:34:48] Nicole Lachenmeir: Thank you for having me. It was really fun.

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