Embracing Unprofessionalism: A Journey with Myriam Hadnes

Gerry Scullion: [00:00:00] Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of Visit eight cd. My name is Jerry Scion, and today I'm gonna be your host. As always. Now a little bit of a different format to the introduction. This episode is gonna be with Miriam Hades and Miriam Hades, facilitator podcaster. And soon to be author of the new book, unprofessionalism.

Gerry Scullion: Now it's a deeply human connection and conversation we have. I met Miriam when I was in Amsterdam working a couple of times last year, and we got to hang out. Um, 'cause I was a subscriber to our newsletter. I thought it was, uh, kind of a nice thing to do when I'm in somebody's city's email saying, Hey, this is what I do.

Gerry Scullion: Maybe we could have, uh, a coffee. Off you turned into a friendship win-win. So we talk about burnout, boundary setting, quitting things, no longer service, why being professional might be getting in the way of being ourselves. Now there's three key takeaways I want you to take from this episode. It's letting go of space.

Gerry Scullion: Miriam shut down a global community and [00:01:00] deleted 300 podcast pages. On their website to simplify her life and business and the results, more clarity, less stress, and no drops in leads, which is really interesting for me because. I'm still the mindset, but like if I've created something, I like to have it available for people to listen to and engage with.

Gerry Scullion: So it was a really refreshing take on something that maybe I've challenged myself on a little bit more. You talk about radical honesty as something which has come up in my own life many, many times, and really talking about it as being a key leadership skill. We dive into how unfiltered communication with care and intention can transform conflict in teams.

Gerry Scullion: We talk about unprofessionalism in a large context in this podcast. It is a movement I'm learning more and more about on LinkedIn and beyond. I. And what if looking polished, perfect, and in control is actually getting the way of doing great work.

Myriam Hadnes: Hmm.

Gerry Scullion: So that is a really ma the, the kind of [00:02:00] the, the anchor of this entire conversation.

Gerry Scullion: Fantastic. Mariam's a really different person. You know, we, we generally have on the podcast, but they're absolutely fantastic. I love hanging out with them and they bring a different perspective to what we do here at this is HCD. We talk about podcasting as a creative outlet, designing lean service businesses, and riding e cargo bikes as well.

Gerry Scullion: This is a, a new thing in my life. It's a fantastic episode. I know you're gonna enjoy it. Before we jump into that episode, I'd like you to remind you to, to like, and subscribe to this podcast. That really helps me build the network, builds the visibility of the podcast and all the hard work that I do. To, to really get it out there.

Gerry Scullion: If you really like what we do, please do leave a review on Spotify or Apple. It really helps the algorithms and shine a little bit more light on us. And if you are just getting started, or even if you are in an organization that's looking to improve how they're delivering services, I. Why not just start up, uh, and take my free five day email course and I kickstart a [00:03:00] human-centered service design revolution in your organization?

Gerry Scullion: The links in the description, it's on the website. You'll see it when you log on. It's a great episode. Let's jump straight in.

Gerry Scullion: Are you coming from Amsterdam today?

Myriam Hadnes: I am, yeah. I'm calling in from Amsterdam. And it's a sunny day.

Gerry Scullion: Yes. So look, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do. Um, Miriam,

Myriam Hadnes: I was born and raised in Germany, Frankfurt, ah. And ended up now in Amsterdam. I lived in Vietnam for two and half years in Luxembourg for two and half years.

Myriam Hadnes: And in Paris, France for a year. No, that's not. Yeah. Um, I, uh, call myself a recovering academic. I did a PhD in [00:04:00] behavioral economics a lifetime ago, um, and worked at universities high education long time before I quit my job and started my own thing. I'm a podcaster. I was the workshops work podcast. I loved our episode.

Gerry Scullion: Absolutely.

Myriam Hadnes: And now I run a training, a boutique training agency. We run, um, workshops for large corporates in up to 15 different languages on topics related to leadership and facilitation, psychological safety, feedback, culture

Gerry Scullion: lovers.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah,

Gerry Scullion: I mean, um, here's a good example folks of what podcast can bring to you.

Gerry Scullion: I think I was on your newsletter and I dunno how I managed it 'cause I don't subscribe to many newsletters. Um. Or maybe I saw something, but either way, I reached out When I was in, I was working in [00:05:00] Amsterdam with a client and I said, Hey, I'm in Amsterdam and I read your newsletter and I'm a podcaster too.

Gerry Scullion: Do you wanna come and have a coffee with me? And you went, yeah. So we had a coffee and um, I was like, Hey, this is kind of cool. And we, we exchanged notes on what we were working on and what we were doing. And yeah, we just hung out and went for dinner a couple of times. I think in, in Amsterdam. And generally speaking, this is what, when you put your work out there and you exchange value where these conversations and relationships can take you, which I, I still think is kind of remarkable how I am sitting, you know, probably.

Gerry Scullion: Somewhere like 50 feet or a hundred feet from my bed and I'm projecting out from this destination and we've managed to connect and here we are today, like, you know. So tell us about workshop's work. Um, because when we first met, we. You had lots [00:06:00] going on. You'd, you'd, you, you had an ecosystem very similar to what I still have.

Gerry Scullion: And we were discussing beforehand that you've kind of gone through this renaissance. Mm. You've gone through this, uh, you know, regrowth period. Yeah. And I'd love to chat a little bit more around that from a business perspective, um, on where you see where you've come from and you know, how you tackle that, that kinda change.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. So until December last year, I was managing a global online community of facilitators, never done before and built, managed this agency that I'm still running. Yeah. And have a weekly podcast. Long form similar to yours. So every week a 90 minutes conversation goes live. Wow. [00:07:00] And, and I realized that, um, it was just too much.

Myriam Hadnes: I was constantly rushing through things, constantly on the edge, and I think it was. And I turned 42, the magic number

Gerry Scullion: four two or 4 4 0, 42, 42.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, and realized that, um, that's not sustainable. That's not what I, what I want. Yeah. So, um, I took the difficult decision to close the community. Yeah.

Myriam Hadnes: Boil down basically to increase the heat so that everything boils down to the essence. What is it that brings me joy? What is it that brings me money? Yeah. And what is it that I actually need in order to, um, to live, to live and thrive? And I, um, we spoke about that very briefly, or [00:08:00] you spoke about it, um, before hitting record times are so stressful.

Myriam Hadnes: I mean, what's happening in the world is just beyond, I think, anyone's understanding. And I realized that it's now that I want to focus on my wellbeing. Yeah. And doing things that bring me joy, my relationship, and minimize work. Yeah.

Gerry Scullion: I mean, yeah, I mean, like, I, I echo everything that you're saying there at the moment.

Gerry Scullion: Like, you know, I, I made a connection with you. Um. A connection to you from, uh, a number of people. I think when we spoke, I was like, Hey, it could be, could be, this could be a nice connection for you to have. And one of them was Mike Parker, who's been on the podcast before. And I wanna speak a little bit more around Mike.

Gerry Scullion: Um, he's a, he's a really special person, like, you know, and, uh, he's connected me through a number of other people who, you know, you [00:09:00] know, friendships and all that kind stuff come, come through this way. Which again, is another example of, you know, when you project and stuff out there, world. You connect with these people and it's just, it's pretty amazing.

Gerry Scullion: Tell us about, um, the journey, if you're open to talking about this with, with Mike and the, the liminal coaching stuff that you did together.

Myriam Hadnes: Mm-hmm. Uh, you connected me to Mike and I interviewed him on the podcast, and I think I interviewed him on a Tuesday or Wednesday, and on the Monday I just started smoking again.

Gerry Scullion: Oh, really?

Myriam Hadnes: And, uh, so I, I call myself a smoker and at the moment I don't smoke, so I'm a dry smoker. What do you call that?

Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

Myriam Hadnes: I think it's one of those addictions that you can never, I think, never shake. And, um, I started when I was 13 Right. [00:10:00] For young. Yeah. And, um, and I was sharing. With Mike that I just started smoking again because of stress, because I always start when I hit the point where I cannot self-regulate anymore.

Myriam Hadnes: And then it seems like the least of all the harms. Yeah. And um, after our recording, he offered me a, um, free coaching session. Yeah. It's a liminal coaching, so it's calls it guided relaxation.

Gerry Scullion: It's lovely. And,

Myriam Hadnes: and the funny thing is, I remember I sat on the balcony smoking a cigarette before going on the call and I was talking to myself saying, I hope he doesn't ask me to quit smoking because I don't have the capacity right now. That's mad, isn't it? And after the call I smoked one more cigarette thinking I'm actually doing this.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. And that was the last time I smoked. Really? [00:11:00] Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, and he didn't talk to me about smoking.

Gerry Scullion: Really? That's interesting. Yeah, we didn't, yeah, it kind of puts you into a state of, well, liminality is what Mike would probably say about it, but, um, I've been meaning to pick it up again with Mike, to be honest, like in the last year or so, I haven't really, um, I haven't spoken to him in, in, since we probably connected both of you together, my life has been quite busy.

Gerry Scullion: You know, there's lots of stuff going on in terms of managing life and work and all of the, the stuff that goes with that. So I've got a young family. For anyone who knows a little bit about my background, I live in Dublin, but it's very hard to juggle everything together at the same time. Um, talk to me about, you know, the, the repositioning of your brand.

Gerry Scullion: Okay. People. Might struggle to do what you did, and that is delete like 300 odd [00:12:00] pages on a website. And it seems like, well, why would someone struggle with that? Um, maybe we talk about that process, um,

Myriam Hadnes: and where it all started. Where did you, where did, where did the journey begin?

Myriam Hadnes: I think I, when I'm very honest to myself, I already realized that I lost a little bit the mojo for the community work a year earlier, but I didn't dare to let go because there were a hundred people from 40 countries, part of the community a.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah, in a way that it was too much to die and too little to live. Yeah, I got it. So I paid for a community, um, manager. I paid for a virtual assistant. I paid for I think I a [00:13:00] thousand years per month for software. For the community platform, for the, all the automations that I included. I had, um, an assistant for social media marketing.

Myriam Hadnes: So there's this beast, huge beast. And um, and every time I received an email, Miriam, the link is broken. Miriam, how do I do that? Where do I post that? I started cringing every time and then I realized, okay, it's, I'm not in a good place if I'm. Start to resend my community members because it's, yeah, I build that.

Myriam Hadnes: I'm serving them, and I built that. So it's my responsibility and still there was this voice in my head that I cannot do, that cannot just stop because I owe them something. I have this responsibility.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, I, I worked on my boundaries last [00:14:00] year. This was my big project last year. I built a boundary tower.

Gerry Scullion: Ah, okay. I don't even know what that

Myriam Hadnes: is. So I started down here. Oh. Um, so, um, my girlfriend bring,

Gerry Scullion: bring it a bit closer. Can we have a look or is it too personal? No, no.

Myriam Hadnes: So, um, I started it, um, I just drew, basically I drew a tower with different steps.

Myriam Hadnes: And every time that I set a boundary, um, I color the stop.

Gerry Scullion: So what's a what, what, what is a step? Then tell us

Myriam Hadnes: A step would be someone saying I would like, um, or Can you do this for me? And I would say, no.

Gerry Scullion: So that's, you put a boundary around it so you identify with yourself. That's something that you're not comfortable doing.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

Myriam Hadnes: A client who wants a last minute call after hour said, no, I don't work. We can speak tomorrow. Um, someone who wants just a little coffee chip to, to pick my brain. No, don't do coffee chats.

Gerry Scullion: So you don't, unless you're Jerry, don't need talk, do that. [00:15:00] Full stop. Or is it you do that with certain people?

Gerry Scullion: Where does that sit? Because that's the, that's the kind of tricky, and,

Myriam Hadnes: and that's a beauty full thing. Um, so my. 99% of the cases is snow full stop. And I became rigorous. Um, with, I guess you have the same, how many people are reaching out to place other people or themselves on my podcast?

Gerry Scullion: Hmm. Yeah. All the time.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. Um, I have five per day. Yeah. It's massive. Um, and I became very good in just saying no without any reason. Yeah. Um, and then there's sometimes. My gut tells me, huh? I'm intrigued. And then it becomes a most, then becomes a maybe and sometimes it becomes a hell. Yeah. Let's do that. Um, like when I received your message.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. And I think it's very difficult to put my finger on it, but I, I think what it boils down to, it's, [00:16:00] um, if someone reach out with authenticity, curiosity, um, yeah.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah, it's, it's hard to let go of the guilt. Um, and that's, that's usually, it's not the saying no, it's the stuff that follows after it that I struggle with

Myriam Hadnes: and I broke up with the guilt.

Gerry Scullion: How I

Myriam Hadnes: don't do that anymore. It's, I don't

Gerry Scullion: want this to turn into a Mel Robbins podcast where people are like, you know, oh my God, you just need to say no and just live with the decision, you know? Um. How do you do that? Like, you know, because you're, I'm 45 and I spent my entire life like feeling guilty for eating chocolate during lent and stuff.

Myriam Hadnes: It's not a three steps program. Yeah. So, um, my boundary tower was 23 steps. Yeah. So, and every time I [00:17:00] celebrate it and I realized that it feels easier at each time. So, um, I think it's like a muscle practicing. Yeah. Um, then I received such beautiful response saying. Honestly saying that, um, I receive a lot of requests and I, I learned to prioritize my own projects and that's why it's no.

Myriam Hadnes: And then they come back and say, thank you for this clear boundary. I really appreciate that. Yeah. To role model that. It's possible. Yeah. I took a workshop on radical honesty. Okay. Which was amazing and really a game changer for me. Um,

Gerry Scullion: what does that mean? Radical honesty?

Myriam Hadnes: I just interviewed them on the podcast.

Myriam Hadnes: I think they're out next, the week after. Um, it means that you don't try to sugarcoat, but you own your decision and you [00:18:00] speak from your heart. So what often happens is that we feel in it or we feel triggered. And then we don't want to make a big deal out of it. So we carry it around and suddenly we become these passive aggressive bitches.

Myriam Hadnes: Okay. Sorry, my French. That's good. So, um, for instance, I was sitting on the balcony with my girlfriend. Yeah. And end of day, and she was sharing about her day. And I listen, it was cool, and then it was kind of my turn. So I started sharing about my day and she said, oh yeah, this reminds me of, and suddenly it was all about her again.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, which is a judgment as I say that. So I could feel this itch, this, oh, I wasn't done yet, and in the past I would've just ignored it because I don't wanna make a thing out of it. And she wants to share and that's okay. And she [00:19:00] also needs the space. And, um, in this instance, I said. May, may I share, we call it, um, we call it Ripple.

Myriam Hadnes: May I share Whipple? Like sure. I was sharing about my day and um, I wasn't done yet and I would have liked to share more. Um, and I noticed that it feels to me as if you're making it all about yourself again, it like, oh, I'm sorry. Sure, I can see that. Please continue. And so I continued my story. If I hadn't said that, I would've pretended as if I listened not.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But not having committed it and then two days later might have exploded because of something else.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah, I mean that's, that's something that a lot of us can probably take something from. Your partner process that, [00:20:00] that request. 'cause if it's, if it's something that's straight outta the gate and something quite new, it can be a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

Gerry Scullion: 'cause those be behaviors have been set.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. Um, so we took the, the workshop together, so that helps. Um, and we talked about, um, so it's our agreement that we will, um, mention to each other whenever we feel a ripple. Um, and then it's very easy to to own it. Because, um, me feeling, and we can be very, very direct saying, um, it feels to me as if, as I said, as if you're making it all about yourself.

Myriam Hadnes: It feels to me like that. Yeah. And you're like, oh, it's interesting that it feels to you like that. So apparently there's an underlying need for me that is. She doesn't take it as an insult because it has very little to do with her and lots to do with me.

Gerry Scullion: So [00:21:00] if you keep on identifying the fact that it's less about them and it's more about you, what do you do in that instance?

Myriam Hadnes: Usually at the moment, we speak it out. It's already good, which is very interesting. I think the, um, when we feel hurt or when we, when I feel need is not met, when I can voice it, articulate. Usually it already calms down my nervous system because then I also know, okay, so what is it that I need? Hmm. I need to be heard.

Myriam Hadnes: I need to talk. Maybe I need a break. Maybe I need to go outside and just walk around the block. Yeah.

Gerry Scullion: So is that something that you've, uh, brought back into your own practice as a practitioner, and how has that sort of managed to manifest itself into your training programs?

Myriam Hadnes: I became radically honest with almost everyone around me in a kind way I would say.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. Um, I, in a [00:22:00] recent workshop, um, the workshop was about, um, conflict, how to avoid and resolve conflict, and we had a group of what, 30 managers and they were sitting there waiting for the three steps checklist on how to avoid conflict. You won't get the checklist for me and I don't believe in the three steps.

Myriam Hadnes: So, um, okay. Who amongst you, um, has arrived at work in a bad mood? So, okay. All the hands went up. Um, okay, so what happened? So maybe you didn't smile. I. Don't smile. Okay. Who forgot to greet someone in the corridor who became, uh, very short in their responses, who, um, wrote maybe very short emails. Oh, okay.

Myriam Hadnes: Now think about, uh, all the moments where you meet someone in the corridor and they don't smile at you and they don't greet and they show, send you short responses to your emails. Maybe they just had a bad day. Hmm. [00:23:00] So how do we reply to the emails that are a bit too short and the not smiling face? Or maybe we become a little bit aggressive because we take it personally, like, oh, so one step process to avoid conflict.

Myriam Hadnes: Acknowledge we are all human.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah. You never know what's going on in someone's head. That's the.

Myriam Hadnes: So I think to, to just voice it and to say, okay, that's what's going on for all of us. Um, let's be honest to ourselves first. Um, goes a big way. Um,

Gerry Scullion: yeah.

Myriam Hadnes: So what does it look like at the moment? 'cause

Gerry Scullion: you've changed your business.

Gerry Scullion: You've, you've called, uh, and use the word cold very carefully there. 'cause you, you've called a lot of content, a lot of, um, landing pages and. If anyone who knows anything about the web and how, you know, kind of traffic and everything is attracted, like you've got all of these pages for that are highly [00:24:00] indexed by Google and it brings traffic, and traffic usually equates to business leads and so forth.

Gerry Scullion: You've, you've called a lot of stuff there at the moment. Now you've got a lean, um, website. Um. What did you notice apart from the fact that you went, okay, it's easier to manage. Okay. Which is an absolutely huge thing as well. What, what did you notice, um, as regards to the business? When you made that decision?

Gerry Scullion: Did you notice a drop off in traffic and business leads or what, what did it look like?

Myriam Hadnes: Nothing. Nothing, nothing. Um. I used to give people access to the repository of over 301 page summaries of each, well, one for each podcast episode for free. Yeah. I stopped there. Yeah. I'm like, why? Why would I do that?

Myriam Hadnes: They can buy the ebook for 10 bucks. Yeah. Um, [00:25:00] two people reached out and said, oh, I was looking for the one page summary. Couldn't find it. I'm like, well, I'm selling them now. Here's the link to buy it. And here's the one page summary that you were looking for happened. Price, and then it's easy to be generous.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah, I, um, I noticed that I, I do believe that what gets our attention grows and if our attention is at too many spots at the same time, it doesn't grow. And I also noticed that we are often not clear. So we are living in a time, for the first time in history, we have more information than we need, right?

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. So the supply of information is higher than the demand. So I think it's very important to know whom we are talking to. I, I'm no longer building a community, so I'm no longer doing B2C. None of the 4,000, 3000 people were on [00:26:00] my newsletter. Are my potential clients, right? Yeah. And that's okay. So I, I stopped trying to sell to them.

Myriam Hadnes: Okay. I'm delivering the podcast to them. If they find value, at some point they might refer me to one of the multinationals that I'm actually trying to sell to. Yeah. The, I think what I observe on LinkedIn and all these social media is, um, many facilitators are producing a lot of content. And sharing content about facilitation and they get all the likes and all the comments from fellow facilitators.

Myriam Hadnes: Mm-hmm. Which feels beautiful for our ego. Yeah. But we, we are not speaking to our clients. We are speaking to our competitors. Yeah. And I think it felt good to, to come so lean because they're like, I don't, if I'm very honest, I need one person to listen to my podcast. I don't need a [00:27:00] thousand. I need one.

Myriam Hadnes: And this one person is in charge of the Global Learning and Development Program, and they need the workshop in Vietnamese and in Mandarin and in Portuguese and in English. Yeah. They need to hire me and all the rest. It's nice to have, that's my contribution to the world.

Gerry Scullion: So let's talk about the, the training stuff.

Gerry Scullion: The training stuff like, like that's realignment and that, um, kind of restrictions that you've put on yourself as a creator to, to try and attract the right customer is something that my business coach has been talking to me about for a long time as well. Like, if you're creating a podcast that's a primarily being listened to people who aren't your customer.

Gerry Scullion: My cousin doesn't really make sense. It doesn't really align to that whole kind of lean mindset of like, actually, you know, we're doing this, we're trying to get people to, to purchase something. [00:28:00] What did you do? Like why would you continue to do your podcast in that?

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah, I, um, I asked myself the same question.

Myriam Hadnes: The different levels, layers to it. I would be curious of, um, yeah. Your perception one is, um, is it true that my, so my podcast in the past did bring me clients. Yeah. So, um, when I started off as a freelancer, um, I did have the team leaders who would call me and say, okay, I need, I need you as a workshop facilitator.

Myriam Hadnes: Great. I did get the referral. People would listen to the podcast, know. Me and then refer me to these multinationals. We are looking for someone like me. Yeah. Um, so there's this, um, I think with a podcast, especially if we're having published so many episodes like you and me mm-hmm. There's, um, [00:29:00] general reputation that we've been growing and it's an opportunity for people to get to know us, um, which is very difficult otherwise because.

Myriam Hadnes: Copy. This is 100% US, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, there's no shortcut, there's no hiding. And, um, I think it's a beautiful opportunity. Um, to show the real us. Yeah. Um, and we, we are growing our fan bases and we don't know to whom they're connected. As you, as you open this podcast, right? Yeah. It's beautiful to see how the referral, the network, we, in their ears, something happens that we cannot control.

Myriam Hadnes: And last, and that's the weird answer to your question. Sorry, I'm going so many tangents. Um, just so the last one is that, um, I'm learning so much. Yeah. I'm [00:30:00] learning so much from my guests and I love speaking to facilitators. I think that they're great people.

Gerry Scullion: All of the, um, but there's something really rewarding for creating, for creating sake and something that's what I.

Gerry Scullion: It's an expression, it's some people, when I was younger, I used to water cutter. That was my thing. Like when I was, you know, early teens, I was watercolorist up until I was 19 and I was just, had to do it like, it was like a habit. Podcasting is kind of like that for me sometimes. I, I'll admit, I, I, not every day I, I want to do podcast, but I find like I feel better after I've.

Gerry Scullion: It's the one kind of exception that I would make to towards my business processes and it's interest to see those kind of perspectives. Do you as well?

Myriam Hadnes: What if it was just a hobby? So what if we just, we label it?

Gerry Scullion: I can call it a hobby if you want. Like I don't have any objectives. [00:31:00] Um, I used to like measure and monitor and all that stuff, but I think I said that to you after while, as long as I.

Gerry Scullion: I get the odd email here and there that people are, are listening. Um, that's fine by me. I mean, I'm not, I'm not expect Joe. Who's not someone I really respect, but anyway, but he's the biggest podcaster in the world to give Joe Rogan a run for their money. We're in totally different worlds. Like a lot of the time.

Gerry Scullion: There's, you know, a subsection of people who are interested in this kind of content that, that I create and that you create where we're kind of like in similar worlds, but different worlds in some ways. But like, I think generally speaking, um. A lot of trust and a lot of, um, clarity when people understand what kind of person you are.

Gerry Scullion: It gives your personality to your brand as well, which is, which is very powerful. It's a very nice way of just putting their toe in the water just to [00:32:00] see if you know your stuff as well. If they listen to one podcast and you go, yeah, Caleb, not a waffler, so to speak, because you'd say in Dublin.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. Have you thought of, uh, stopping your podcast?

Gerry Scullion: I did for a while. Um, what was that collective gasps? Um, I did for a while, um, maybe about two years ago. I was like, okay, well why, why am I doing this? Um, because it does take, uh, an absolutely, um, mountain to, to make it happen continuously and. Just to give you a bit of background on, on some of the logistical side of things.

Gerry Scullion: It became so, like, I like you, I, maybe there's three other people that are involved in making it. Get out there. Steph, who, um, is probably not listening 'cause they're just had their third baby, um, was working with me, um, and is on maternity leave and absolutely Steph, Steph was like, took [00:33:00] all of the pressure off.

Gerry Scullion: Had her baby. Um, I was like, okay, now I'm, I'm either gonna get somebody else and we got somebody else to take over and then they left. And I was like, okay. And then I asked my best friend from school who's just like, interested in podcasting. He took over for a couple of weeks and then he's like, oh, this is just so kind of, I don't want to do this anymore.

Gerry Scullion: And I, like, he left. And then I was, is I.

Gerry Scullion: This stuff is, it is quite monotonous when you're dealing with, there's lots of platforms that you have to engage with and sync, and I heard this great guy called Vitali who has now sort of automated a lot of the processes and I just get a Google sheet and I hit approved and it sinks like magic out onto the social networks and I only have to do one extra step.

Gerry Scullion: So I took it. [00:34:00] Two hours to maybe about 15 minutes now, and it's much more manageable. So, um, I did, I did think about stopping it, but then I actually took a, took a service design approach. Mm. I mapped the entire experience and, uh, looked at all the steps that were involved and seeing where we streamline some of these pieces.

Gerry Scullion: An absolutely, you know, enormous amount of time and I wanna try and become a little bit more kind of aware of where I'm spending my time to make sure that I'm either making money or I am, uh, you know, getting into a new hobby with intent.

Myriam Hadnes: That's what

Gerry Scullion: I'm,

Myriam Hadnes: yes. Yeah, that's most important

Gerry Scullion: with intent.

Gerry Scullion: You've gone through all this process, we've gone over the whole kind of like you've cut things back. Nothing really has changed. You're targeting, uh, you know, [00:35:00] learning clients, but you mentioned something there that was really interesting in terms of lots of other, um, delivery, uh, and languages that you're delivering your training through might be kind of unusual for.

Gerry Scullion: There's only one Miriam here. Do you speak 11 or 12 other languages or how do you do this?

Myriam Hadnes: I have a, I have a network of associates. Ah. So the beauty of having built an international community of facilitators was that I saw them facilitate and over four years we build this culture, um, based on trust of shared, um, beliefs.

Myriam Hadnes: Understanding of what facilitation actually means to us. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so we have, um, I now have a group of associates and we can, together, we cover all these question, uh, all these languages. [00:36:00] Nice. So if the client needs, um, a workshop in any of the languages, you're able to do it. And I have, um, I learned a lot about automation and.

Myriam Hadnes: Lean project management. So it's all connected. The, the client books a workshop, so a Calendly link. It goes into our shared calendars, the facilitators state, whether they're available. Then I do the allocation.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah. So what does that look like in terms of the, uh, they take the call if it's in Malay for argument sake, they're not able to take it.

Gerry Scullion: How do you work around that?

Myriam Hadnes: Um, hasn't happened yet, happened yet? So I usually have, um, for the major languages, I have three, three associates.

Gerry Scullion: So for people listening, what languages are you doing? Like,

Myriam Hadnes: um, what

Gerry Scullion: are you available for?

Myriam Hadnes: We do Mandarin, Vietnamese, [00:37:00] um, Korean, Japanese, um. Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French, German, English.

Myriam Hadnes: Then you can do the German one. Yeah, yeah. I can even do the French. Really? Wow. Yeah.

Gerry Scullion: How many languages do you speak?

Myriam Hadnes: Three. Yeah.

Gerry Scullion: Wow. That's, so I

Myriam Hadnes: facilitate in three languages. Yeah.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah. That's pretty impressive. I know. Um, a couple of people like Adam Lawrence does, he's got a couple of languages up the sleeve as well.

Gerry Scullion: I'm always very jealous of that. So that's pretty impressive. Like, so people listening and they're looking to learn more around Miriam's work. They can go to workshops, work, dot work, um, and you know, there's, there's a whole kinda series of stuff up there that you can still connect with Miriam on, um, especially if you're looking for courses about facilitation.

Gerry Scullion: Is that right?[00:38:00]

Gerry Scullion: Yeah. But I'm saying if there's clients out there listening, so the, the client engage, but facilitation workshops

Myriam Hadnes: and, um, yeah, so I, I really do. And even the courses, if, if they want to build a facilitation academy, we do that. Okay. For your own, they help them to upskill their people to have an academy where they can learn facilitation.

Myriam Hadnes: Sure. But the one off things, um, the off the shelves things. No,

Gerry Scullion: you don't do that. So personalized coaching for facilitators and leaders. So there's people out there. Um, I still do coaching. I've, I've kind of made, I have a boundary on that one as well. Actually, that's a new thing. You, okay? You're coughing.

Gerry Scullion: It's the residual, uh, smoker's cough. Um, you do personally. So you do offer coaching for. Uh, people who are looking to learn and looking for an intense way to get up to [00:39:00] speed as quickly as possible. With, with you, is it? Yeah. So you've got that available on your website still? Yeah. Yes. Um, but generally speaking, for the, the clients out there who are listening and looking at, uh, Miriam's website, what other courses you mentioned about conflict management, what other courses and themes are you able to, um, deliver

Myriam Hadnes: psychological, everything around psychological safety.

Gerry Scullion: Okay.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, how to create it for teams, how to create it for companies.

Gerry Scullion: Nice.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, feedback culture. How to actually give feedback that lands and does something, um, in combination. I believe in with nonviolent communication. Radical honesty. Yeah. I'm not certified in either of them, but they have informed I'm coming from.

Myriam Hadnes: I facilitation techniques for managers facilitate meetings.

Gerry Scullion: That's a huge one. Mm-hmm. As well, like, you know, there's, so, [00:40:00] there's loads of stuff that people can still reach out and asking question

Myriam Hadnes: values. How do you, so what I find interesting there, great facilitators out there who help companies to define the values, but then how do you disseminate them?

Myriam Hadnes: How do you get your entire multinational organization on board to.

Myriam Hadnes: Come in and do the workshops for all their employees, um, for them to connect to the values, to themselves, to their teams,

Gerry Scullion: right? There's a whole, whole world of stuff that, um, you can help organizations with, which is fantastic. Um, so let's, let's start thinking about what working on. Um, from reading a newsletter, you are working on a book.

Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm. Yes. And tell us about, um, the book and what's the premise of the book and where you're at with that at the moment.

Myriam Hadnes: Mm. [00:41:00] The book will be called Unprofessionalism.

Gerry Scullion: Okay.

Myriam Hadnes: Which is, um, a provocation. Yeah. It's a provocation born from the observation that the notion of professionalism. Um, has gone totally sideways.

Myriam Hadnes: And what I observe is that everyone below the surface, everyone is winging it. Nobody actually has a clue what they're doing, not me. Of course not you, me neither. Um, everything is moving too fast to really have the, an overview and, um, I'm regularly shocked when I look behind the surface of how. Very big companies, um, operate on a daily basis.

Myriam Hadnes: They're also just winging it and it costs so much energy to pretend as if we figured it out. Yeah. Because it means [00:42:00] if we want to keep this professional facade, we're competent, we know what we're doing. We always wear makeup, we look great. We're in a good mood. Yeah. And all of this cost, energy that we have to take from somewhere else.

Myriam Hadnes: Hence, what are we observing? A burnout, pandemic, loneliness, sadness, grief, unprocessed emotions. Lots of conflict. Yeah. A small piece of feedback explodes because we don't have the capacity to actually connect to our humanness and the humanness of our coworkers to actually do something with this. But actually constructive and helpful and well meant feedback.

Myriam Hadnes: So I am basically questioning this entire notion of professionalism and where it brought us and want to plant a piece of hope. Yeah. And a wake up call to what if we just [00:43:00] leave aside the notion of we have to be so professional, we have to appear like something and step into. Asking for help, admitting that we don't know, reaching out to people, um, wearing less makeup, being more ourselves.

Gerry Scullion: Where does service proficiency come from as regards professionalism.

Myriam Hadnes: So, um, for me, unprofessional, or what I'm not criticizing is. High quality and um, and customer focus. Hmm. Um, so I'm not saying that we should start being mean to our customers or delivering bad quality. Yeah. And I think even be showing ourselves and being more human with our customers also help saying that we can [00:44:00] help them if we cannot.

Myriam Hadnes: Sure. It doesn't help if we say, oh, I hear your problem. I would love to help you. At the moment, I don't, I don't know, but I'm finding a solution. Great. Yeah.

Gerry Scullion: I find the whole professional thing, it is kind of, it is an interesting topic where it originated from. Mm-hmm. So when I was, I was speaking to my next door neighbor who's, who's 81.

Gerry Scullion: I think he might be listening to the podcast because there's a few things he is mentioned to me, but he still wears a shirt and tie. Mm-hmm. And. He said that everyone, way back in the fifties and sixties in Ireland, when they'd knock on your door, they'd be wearing a shirt and tie, even if they were like from the ESB, which is like the electrical supplier.

Gerry Scullion: And I was like, wow, that's kind of interesting. I said, so why are you still wearing it? Like, you know, you're, he's doing the garden in a shirt and tie, like, you know, and he says, it's just. That's the way I'm, I liked it. I like to look smart, he said like, and his wife is always saying to [00:45:00] Mary, who's absolutely amazing, and she's like, I'm always trying to get him to wear something more casual.

Gerry Scullion: But that's just the way he's, that's, he just loves wearing a shirt and tie and he was a teacher and he wore a shirt and tie all the time. And then I'm like, well, we've kind of lost that a little bit And I, if it's good or bad thing, but I think I'd love perspectives on. Presentation layer. Mm. So to speak.

Gerry Scullion: I remember, sorry to go into deviation folks, but years ago when I, when I came home from Australia, I took a role at consultancy and you know, if anyone who knows me, I wear jeans and I wear dock mar and boots and you know, I'm kind of like, I guess creative. And I walked into the consultancy and the first day and they went, what are those?

Gerry Scullion: I go, what? And those, and pointed down at my legs and I.

Gerry Scullion: I go, what? I said, what are those? I go, they're boot runners. I said, you need to go down and buy some slacks. [00:46:00] And I went, I'm not wearing slacks. I don't wear them. Like I said, it's not who I am. And instantly it was a tension and it was a conflict and I didn't resolve, and I, I left that poet, Bon Jovi would say.

Gerry Scullion: Where does that layer of professionalism come from? Like what, what, what are we trying to evoke by wearing, wearing the, the armor, like te tell us what's, what are we trying to convey by wearing those things?

Myriam Hadnes: So I think there's several layers. Um, so professionalism initially, um, came from, was a social contract.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. Where there were professions, um, like being a lawyer, a doctor mm-hmm. Um, an engineer. It was extremely difficult and expensive to learn the skills of that profession. So in [00:47:00] return, there were, guilts would protect the, the profession, um, and make sure that they get the financial compensation, the status, and all of that.

Myriam Hadnes: Mm-hmm.

Myriam Hadnes: As corporations, private companies grew very fast. They didn't have these skills to protect what they would need within themselves to, um, to show quality to the outside world, um, and their brand. So that's when the concept of corporate professionalism came in. Which was not to protect society from the cracks or the imposters, but to basically protect the company, um, company's quality and profit to make sure that everyone adhere to some standards that they defined.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah, and I think that's where the, um, dress codes come in. [00:48:00] Um, so to see a banker and sneakers and sweatpants. Yeah. Or a consultant would be really weird. Conflict. And then the, the problem is, I think that I'm reading this book, um, called Sub Subliminal, that we do judge by the looks. Yeah. We do this automatically.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, and

Gerry Scullion: which is awful.

Myriam Hadnes: Yes. And it is, um, it is what it is. So we cannot change it. But if we, is that a human nature? Yeah. Is that

Gerry Scullion: like,

Myriam Hadnes: yeah.

Gerry Scullion: It's something that's baked into our psyche that we just would be, because it's just, it's a

Myriam Hadnes: shortcut. It's, it saves processing power. But then if a to two artist or a yoga teacher would come in a formal, formal suit, we would judge them similarly.

Myriam Hadnes: Right. So it's also, yeah. Um, a process that we have learned and that we might be able unlearn.

Myriam Hadnes: Why would I wear a suit or [00:49:00] shoes that hurt? Mm-hmm. And hence make me less professional in terms of content output because I cannot think if my feet hurt. Right? Yeah. If I cannot breathe because the tie is too, too narrow, right? Then I won't be the best consultant.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah. I find it really interesting, like just.

Gerry Scullion: I sometimes find myself wearing a suit, which is just a, a form of if I'm training for specific clients, I'll, I'll wear a suit if needed. And that's just more to show respect that I am, I'm aware that this is a situation here where we're, we're all invested in, and I've put my time and energy and my focus into it.

Gerry Scullion: To sort of compromising in some ways.

Myriam Hadnes: And I think that's a beautiful example for, it's not because of the professional label, but it's how we show respect

Gerry Scullion: Yeah. Like as, as a respect giving [00:50:00] piece. Whereas most of the time I think I'm not like that. Yeah. And like I, I don't want it to be about me. I'm, I'm trying to understand your thoughts on this and what we can take this back into our workplace.

Gerry Scullion: I think most people would probably choose to get to wear what they want, um, so they can feel more comfortable and more effective. Um, 'cause they can show up as they are and who they're,

Myriam Hadnes: yeah. And I think the. So the air quotes unprofessional. Right. So my understanding, my provocative understanding would then be okay.

Myriam Hadnes: Where would you feel comfortable to work and have the conversation if someone has needs, desires, or feels offended? If my coworker feels offended by me showing my tattoos. Mm-hmm. Who, who am I to judge if they feel offended that I want to take it seriously? And how [00:51:00] can we find a solution for that? Um, and I think this would be a much he approach Yeah.

Myriam Hadnes: Than forcing everyone into a dress code that is, that doesn't make them feel, um, as the best version of themselves. And I think it quickly goes into a masking, I hashtag radically honest. I received an email yesterday by one of the pr, one of PR agents for podcast placement. Um, sending me a link to a LinkedIn profile, and I looked at the LinkedIn profile.

Myriam Hadnes: It was so polished, it was so much makeup and so kind of the shiny, I didn't see any personality behind that profile, so I sent back an email like, I'm sorry. It's, to be very honest, it just looks too. Too polished. And that's not what I'm looking for on my podcast, where I want to have the authentic, the deep [00:52:00] conversation with a human.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah. That's, I I, I, I know I might kind of lose listeners on this, but it seems to be a very American mm-hmm. Kinda thing, like the slacks on the shirt. And whenever I, in Australia in particular, I remember meeting a bunch of business, um, keynote speakers and. Follow a, um, follow a kind of process, like they're just like checkered shirt and slacks and it just seems very formulaic and not very personal.

Gerry Scullion: Not everyone obviously, like I'm not brandish in the entire, you know, speaking community, but there seems to be a trend. Just people fall into this, this kind of like very polished, very corporate white whitened teeth kind of scenario, and it just doesn't feel real, you know?

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah. And I think, and that's something that's, that's actually at the core of my, my book.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, I believe that [00:53:00] it's a kind of, it's born out of an imposter syndrome. Yeah. That we, I had so many instances that I thought. Who am I? What kind of podcast host am I? I'm not professional enough. I'm not this enough, and I just realized that I plugged in the one microphone, so I, my audio maybe is shit.

Myriam Hadnes: That's

Gerry Scullion: actually

Myriam Hadnes: really good. I don't do much editing. So all of that, I, I would judge myself. Yeah, because I don't fit the image. And I think the more we are doubting our own capabilities, capacities, label status, the. We, let's build this. Let's hire someone to. To polish it a bit. Yeah. Um, and then where does it end?

Myriam Hadnes: We end being imposters, pretending as if we are these perfect, polished people, but we're actually not.

Gerry Scullion: I know, I remember. It's funny you, you actually call that out. [00:54:00] 'cause I remember way back in 2017 when I started. Um, there was an episode I did with somebody online and I wasn't happy with, I was really nervous.

Gerry Scullion: I was really nervous and I, I had questions way back then. I used to have set questions and what I actually did was I said I was gonna edit and rean re-ask my questions and drop them in. I was so nervous about how I.

Gerry Scullion: We don't do any editing really on this podcast unless I'm saying something that's radically drastic. Then I'm like, actually, that's too much. I'm gonna take it out. Most of the time, like you, it's published, there's an intro and there's an outro, and that's just the way it is. It feels much better. Feels that's the kind of world that I want to kind of emulate.

Myriam Hadnes: Yes. And don't we wanna be followed and appreciated by those who like us as we are [00:55:00] instead of those who, who fall in love with the image, with something that we're actually not, and that we would have to work hard for.

Gerry Scullion: It's a very deep way of looking at, you know, how we present. And I guess that probably falls into unprofessionalism in some ways. Like you wanna attract the kind of opportunities that reflect your values. And I'm lucky enough at the moment that everyone that I've kind of been working with over the last year or two and the people that I collaborate with.

Gerry Scullion: They're all pretty much my, my dream clients and stuff. So that's why I said at the start of the conversation, things are good. Like I don't have any, um, dickish clients as I call 'em, like people who are expecting too much and, but I would still always aim to over deliver folks anyways. Is out there interested in some, uh, design training, you know, where to come, um, at with the book anyway?

Gerry Scullion: Um, tell [00:56:00] us. Are you in the middle of stages of the book, sounds like? Yeah.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, I just deleted 20 pages.

Gerry Scullion: Dun dun. Mm-hmm.

Myriam Hadnes: Because I realized that I was kind of hiding myself. It's so funny. Writing a book is such a, such a thetical process. The impression, getting on tangents, getting too intellectualized, um, and realizing the reader of the book doesn't read the book because they want to know the history of professionalism.

Myriam Hadnes: Yeah.

Gerry Scullion: Some people might want. There's definitely parts of it. I'm interested in where it comes from, the origins of it so we can challenge those. Yeah. Pieces like, I'm sure there's colonial parts of it as well, like, you know, there's, there's definitely aspects of professionalism and certain disciplines, power, trust, all of it comes into that, so I.

Gerry Scullion: Subscribed. So if people wanna find out more about the journey that you're going [00:57:00] on and when it's gonna be ready, um, what's the best way for them to do that? Mariam, to stay up to date.

Myriam Hadnes: Um, subscribe to my newsletter. Another unprofessional thing. I don't segment my list anymore either you want to hear about my stuff or you don't?

Myriam Hadnes: Since I don't have anything to sell to anyone. Um. I share a little blurb about my learnings about unprofessionalism leadership life whatsoever. Um, the one page summary for the podcast, I might start a second podcast, uh, on unprofessionalism. Yeah, because I want to interview, I want to hear from people who, through unprofessional methods, have had great success.

Gerry Scullion: Nice.

Myriam Hadnes: So if you swim against the swim against. Um, so yeah, there's a, I think the corner.[00:58:00]

Gerry Scullion: I'm looking at it right here. That's where it's, yeah. Otherwise

Myriam Hadnes: LinkedIn. I'm an open book on LinkedIn.

Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. Well, look, I'm gonna put both links into the chat or not the chat, the description if you're, uh, on Spotify, uh, or the other way around. If you're on YouTube, the description in the show notes, if you're on Spotify and Apple.

Gerry Scullion: Um, and I always wrap up every podcast. Um, guest on this is a CD by thanking. You for your time and your energy and your vulnerability being in this conversation, in this, uh, space of allowing me to go left, right, and up and down and back and forth, and sometimes reversing over questions until I understand a little bit more.

Gerry Scullion: And yeah, you're no different. Miriam, thank you so much for giving me your time and energy and let me to speak inside your brain today.

Myriam Hadnes: Thank you so much. Loved it, and love to be in conversation with you.

Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. I'll do it again soon. Okay. Thanks much. Yes. Lemme

Myriam Hadnes: know when you can.

Gerry Scullion: Yeah, for [00:59:00] sure.

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